May 13, 2005
FDR DECLARES WAR ON GERMANY:
Radio Address Delivered by President Roosevelt From Washington, December 9, 1941
The sudden criminal attacks perpetrated by the Japanese in the Pacific provide the climax of a decade of international immorality.Powerful and resourceful gangsters have banded together to make war upon the whole human race. Their challenge has now been flung at the United States of America. The Japanese have treacherously violated the long-standing peace between us. Many American soldiers and sailors have been killed by enemy action. American ships have been sunk; American airplanes have been destroyed.
The Congress and the people of the United States have accepted that challenge.
Together with other free peoples, we are now fighting to maintain our right to live among our world neighbors in freedom and in common decency, without fear of assault.
I have prepared the full record of our past relations with Japan, and it will be submitted to the Congress. It begins with the visit of Commodore Perry to Japan 88 years ago. It ends with the visit of two Japanese emissaries to the Secretary of State last Sunday, an hour after Japanese forces had loosed their bombs and machine guns against our flag, our forces, and our citizens.
I can say with utmost confidence that no Americans today or a thousand years hence need feel anything but pride in our patience and our efforts through all the years toward achieving a peace in the Pacific which would be fair and honorable to every nation, large or small. And no honest person, today or a thousand years hence, will be able to suppress a sense of indignation and horror at the treachery committed by the military dictators of Japan, under the very shadow of the flag of peace borne by their special envoys in our midst.
The course that Japan has followed for the past 10 years in Asia has paralleled the course of Hitler and Mussolini in Europe and Africa. Today, it has become far more than a parallel. It is collaboration so well calculated that all the continents of the world, and all the oceans, are now considered by the Axis strategists as one gigantic battlefield.
In 1931, Japan invaded Manchukuo-without warning.
In 1935, Italy invaded Ethiopia-without warning.
In 1938, Hitler occupied Austria-without warning.
In 1939, Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia,-without warning.
Later in 1939, Hitler invaded Poland-without warning.
In 1940, Hitler invaded Norway, Denmark, Holland, Belgium, and Luxembourg-without warning.
In 1940, Italy attacked France and later-Greece-without warning.
In 1941, the Axis Powers attacked Yugoslavia and Greece and they dominated the Balkans-without warning.
In 1941, Hitler invaded Russia-without warning.
And now Japan has attacked Malaya and Thailand-and the United States-without warning.
It is all of one pattern.
We are now in this war. We are all in it-all the way. Every single man, woman, and child is a partner in the most tremendous undertaking of our American history. We must share together the bad news and the good news, the defeats and the victories-the changing fortunes of war.
So far, the news has all been bad. We have suffered a serious set back in Hawaii. Our forces in the Philippines, which include the brave people of that Commonwealth, are taking punishment, but are defending themselves vigorously. The reports from Guam and Wake and Midway Islands are still confused, but we must be prepared for the announcement that all these three outposts have been seized.
The casualty lists of these first few days will undoubtedly be large. I deeply feel the anxiety of all families of the men in our armed forces and the relatives of people in cities which have been bombed. I can only give them my solemn promise that they will get news just as quickly as possible.
This Government will put its trust in the stamina of the American people, and will give the facts to the public as soon as two conditions have been fulfilled: first, that the information has been, definitely and officially confirmed; and, second, that the release of the information at the time it is received will not prove valuable to the enemy directly or indirectly.
Most earnestly I urge my countrymen to reject all rumors. These ugly little hints of complete disaster fly thick and fast in wartime. They have to be examined and appraised.
As an example, I can tell you frankly that until further surveys are made, I have not sufficient information to state the exact damage which has been done to our naval vessels at Pearl Harbor. Admittedly the damage is serious. But no one can say how serious until we know how much of this damage can be repaired and how quickly the necessary repairs can be made.
I cite as another example a statement made on Sunday night that a Japanese carrier had been located and sunk off the Canal Zone. And when you hear statements that are attributed to what they call "an authoritative source", you can be reasonably sure that under these war circumstances the "authoritative source" was not any person in authority.
Many rumors and reports which we now hear originate with enemy sources. For instance, today the Japanese are claiming that as a result of their one action against Hawaii they have gained naval supremacy in the Pacific. This is an old trick of propaganda which has been used innumerable times by the Nazis. The purposes of such fantastic claims are, of course, to spread fear and confusion among us, and to goad us into revealing military information which our enemies are desperately anxious to obtain.
Our Government will not be caught in this obvious trap-and neither will our people.
It must be remembered by each and every one of us that our free and rapid communication must be greatly restricted in wartime. It is not possible to receive full, speedy, accurate reports from distant areas of combat. This is particularly true where naval operations are concerned. For in these days of the marvels of radio it is often impossible for the commanders of various units to report their activities by radio, for the very simple reason that this information would become available to the enemy and would disclose their position and their plan of defense or attack.
Of necessity there will be delays in officially confirming or denying reports of operations, but we will not hide facts from the country if we know the facts and if the enemy will not be aided by their disclosure.
To all newspapers and radio stations-all those who reach the eyes and ears of the American people-I say this: you have a most grave responsibility to the Nation now and for the duration of this war.
If you feel that your Government is not disclosing enough of the truth, you have every right to say so. But-in the absence of all the facts, as revealed by official sources-you have no right to deal out unconfirmed reports in such a way as to make people believe they are gospel truth.
Every citizen, in every walk of life, shares this same responsibility. The lives of our soldiers and sailors-the whole future of this Nation-depend upon the manner in which each and every one of us fulfils his obligation to our country.
Now a word about the recent past--and the future. A year and a half has elapsed since the fall of France, when the whole world first realized the mechanized might which the Axis nations had been building for so many years. America has used that year and a half to great advantage. Knowing that the attack might reach us in all too short a time, we immediately began greatly to increase our industrial strength and our capacity to meet the demands of modern warfare.
Precious months were gained by sending vast quantities of our war material to the nations of the world still able to resist Axis aggression. Our policy rested on the fundamental truth that the defense of any country resisting Hitler or Japan was in the long run the defense of our own country. That policy has been justified. It has given us time, invaluable time, to build our American assembly lines of production.
Assembly lines are now in operation. Others are being rushed to completion. A steady stream of tanks and planes, of guns and ships, of shells and equipment-that is what these 18 months have given us.
But it is all only a beginning of what has to be done. We must be set to face a long war against crafty and powerful bandits. The attack at Pearl Harbor can be repeated at any one of many points in both oceans and along both our coast lines and against all the rest of the hemisphere.
It will not only be a long war, it will be a hard war. That is the basis on which we now lay all our plans. That is the yardstick by which we measure what we shall need and demand; money, materials, doubled and quadrupled production--ever-increasing. The production must be not only for our own Army and Navy and Air Forces. It must reinforce the other armies and navies and air forces fighting the Nazis and the war-lords of Japan throughout the Americas and the world.
I have been working today on the subject of production. Your Government has decided on two broad policies.
The first is to speed up all existing production by working on a seven-day-week basis in every war industry, including the production of essential raw materials.
The second policy, now being put into form, is to rush additions to the capacity of production by building more new plants, by adding to old plants, and by using the many smaller plants for war needs.
Over the hard road of the past months, we have at times met obstacles and difficulties, divisions and disputes, indifference and callousness. That is now all past-and, I am sure, forgotten.
The fact is that the country now has an organization in Washington built around men and women who are recognized experts in their own fields. I think the country knows that the people who are actually responsible in each and every one of these many fields are pulling together with a teamwork that has never before been excelled.
On the road ahead there lies hard work-gruelling work-day and night, every hour and every minute.
I was about to add that ahead there lies sacrifice for all of us.
But it is not correct to use that word. The United States does not consider it a sacrifice to do all one can, to give one's best to our Nation, when the Nation is fighting for its existence and its future life.
It is not a sacrifice for any man, old or young, to be in the Army or the Navy of the United States. Rather is it a privilege.
It is not a sacrifice for the industrialist or the wage-earner, the farmer or the shopkeeper, the trainman or the doctor, to pay more taxes, to buy more bonds, to forego extra profits, to work longer or harder at the task for which he is best fitted. Rather is it a privilege.
It is not a sacrifice to do without many things to which we are accustomed if the national defense calls for doing without.
A review this morning leads me to the conclusion that at present we shall not have to curtail the normal articles of food. There is enough food for all of us and enough left over to send to those who are fighting on the same side with us.
There will be a clear and definite shortage of metals of many kinds for civilian use, for the very good reason that in our increased program we shall need for war purposes more than half of that portion of the principal metals which during the past year have gone into articles for civilian use. We shall have to give up many things entirely.
I am sure that the people in every part of the Nation are prepared in their individual living to win this war. I am sure they will cheerfully help to pay a large part of its financial cost while it goes on. I am sure they will cheerfully give up those material things they are asked to give up.
I am sure that they will retain all those great spiritual things without which we cannot win through.
I repeat that the United States can accept no result save victory, final and complete. Not only must the shame of Japanese treachery be wiped out, but the sources of international brutality, wherever they exist, must be absolutely and finally broken.
In my message to the Congress yesterday I said that we "will make very certain that this form of treachery shall never endanger us again." In order to achieve that certainty, we must begin the great task that is before us by abandoning once and for all the illusion that we can ever again isolate ourselves from the rest of humanity.
In these past few years-and, most violently, in the past few days-we have learned a terrible lesson.
It is our obligation to our dead-it is our sacred obligation to their children and our children-that we must never forget what we have learned.
And what we all have learned is this:
There is no such thing as security for any nation-or any individual-in a world ruled by the principles of gangsterism.
There is no such thing as impregnable defense against powerful aggressors who sneak up in the dark and strike without warning.
We have learned that our ocean-girt hemisphere is not immune from severe attack-that we cannot measure our safety in terms of miles on any map.
We may acknowledge that our enemies have performed a brilliant feat of deception, perfectly timed and executed with great skill. It was a thoroughly dishonorable deed, but we must face the fact that modern warfare as conducted in the Nazi manner is a dirty business. We don't like it-we didn't want to get in it-but we are in it, and we're going to fight it with everything we've got.
I do not think any American has any doubt of our ability to administer proper punishment to the perpetrators of these crimes.
Your Government knows that for weeks Germany has been telling Japan that if Japan did not attack the United States, Japan would not share in dividing the spoils with Germany when peace came. She was promised by Germany that if she came in she would receive the complete and perpetual control of the whole of the Pacific area-and that means not only the Far East, not only all of the islands in the Pacific, but also a stranglehold on the west coast of North, Central, and South America.
We also know that Germany and Japan are conducting their military and naval operations in accordance with a joint plan, That plan considers all peoples and nations which are not helping the Axis powers as common enemies of each and every one of the Axis powers.
That is their simple and obvious grand strategy. That is why the American people must realize that it can be matched only with similar grand strategy. We must realize for example that Japanese successes against the United States in the Pacific are helpful to German operations in Libya; that any German success against the Caucasus is inevitably an assistance to Japan in her operations against the Dutch East Indies; that a German attack against Algiers or Morocco opens the way to a German attack against South America.
On the other side of the picture, we must learn to know that guerilla warfare against the Germans in Serbia helps us; that a successful Russian offensive against the Germans helps us; and that British successes on land or sea in any part of the world strengthen our hands.
Remember always that Germany and Italy, regardless of any formal declaration of war, consider themselves at war with the United States at this moment just as much as they consider themselves at war with Britain and Russia. And Germany puts all the other republics of the Americas into the category of enemies. The people of the hemisphere can be honored by that.
The true goal we seek is far above and beyond the ugly field of battle. When we resort to force, as now we must, we are determined that this force shall be directed toward ultimate good as well as against immediate evil. We Americans are not destroyers-we are builders.
We are now in the midst of a war, not for conquest, not for vengeance, but for a world in which this Nation, and all that this Nation represents, will be safe for our children. We expect to eliminate the danger from Japan, but it would serve us ill if we accomplished that and found that the rest of the world was dominated by Hitler and Mussolini.
We are going to win the war and we are going to win the peace that follows.
And in the dark hours of this day-and through dark days that may be yet to come-we will know that the vast majority of the members of the human race are on our side. Many of them are fighting with us. All of them are praying for us. For, in representing our cause, we represent theirs as well-our hope and their hope for liberty under God.
Two days later Hitler responded to the speech in kind, by declaring war on the U.S.. Posted by Orrin Judd at May 13, 2005 1:05 PM
Again, you are a liar OJ. American declared war on Germany after they had declared war on us. The above statement was not a declaration war nor did a state of belligerancy exist unitl Hitler's declaration. To twist this statement into such a declaration is the depth of intellectual dishonesty. FDR's declaration of war follows:
December 11, 1941
The President's Message
To the Congress of the United States:
On the morning of Dec. 11 the Government of Germany, pursuing its course of world conquest, declared war against the United States. The long-known and the long-expected has thus taken place. The forces endeavoring to enslave the entire world now are moving toward this hemisphere. Never before has there been a greater challenge to life, liberty and civilization. Delay invites great danger. Rapid and united effort by all of the peoples of the world who are determined to remain free will insure a world victory of the forces of justice and of righteousness over the forces of savagery and of barbarism. Italy also has declared war against the United States.
I therefore request the Congress to recognize a state of war between the United States and Germany, and between the United States and Italy.
Franklin D. Roosevelt
The War Resolution
Declaring that a state of war exists between the Government of Germany and the government and the people of the United States and making provision to prosecute the same.
Whereas the Government of Germany has formally declared war against the government and the people of the United States of America:
Therefore, be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, that the state of war between the United States and the Government of Germany which has thus been thrust upon the United States is hereby formally declared; and the President is hereby authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces of the government to carry on war against the Government of Germany; and to bring the conflict to a successful termination, all of the resources of the country are hereby pledged by the Congress of the United States
Posted by: daniel duffy at May 13, 2005 1:28 PMAgain, you are a liar OJ. American declared war on Germany after they had declared war on us. The above statement was not a declaration war nor did a state of belligerancy exist unitl Hitler's declaration. To twist this statement into such a declaration is the depth of intellectual dishonesty. FDR's declaration of war follows:
December 11, 1941
The President's Message
To the Congress of the United States:
On the morning of Dec. 11 the Government of Germany, pursuing its course of world conquest, declared war against the United States. The long-known and the long-expected has thus taken place. The forces endeavoring to enslave the entire world now are moving toward this hemisphere. Never before has there been a greater challenge to life, liberty and civilization. Delay invites great danger. Rapid and united effort by all of the peoples of the world who are determined to remain free will insure a world victory of the forces of justice and of righteousness over the forces of savagery and of barbarism. Italy also has declared war against the United States.
I therefore request the Congress to recognize a state of war between the United States and Germany, and between the United States and Italy.
Franklin D. Roosevelt
The War Resolution
Declaring that a state of war exists between the Government of Germany and the government and the people of the United States and making provision to prosecute the same.
Whereas the Government of Germany has formally declared war against the government and the people of the United States of America:
Therefore, be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, that the state of war between the United States and the Government of Germany which has thus been thrust upon the United States is hereby formally declared; and the President is hereby authorized and directed to employ the entire naval and military forces of the government to carry on war against the Government of Germany; and to bring the conflict to a successful termination, all of the resources of the country are hereby pledged by the Congress of the United States
Posted by: daniel duffy at May 13, 2005 1:29 PMAh, the formalities...
Posted by: oj at May 13, 2005 1:33 PMThere was essentially an undeclared war between Germany and the US in the Atlantic from 1940 on. Ever hear of USS Reuben James, DD 245?
Posted by: Mike Morley at May 13, 2005 1:40 PM"Formalities" are rather important to those of us who lack a paranoid, conspiratorial mind set.
Posted by: daniel duffy at May 13, 2005 1:43 PMEven Churchill knew Pearl Harbor meant America would go to war against Germany; he was so sure America was on his side that he informed the Japanese Ambassador that Britain was now at war with Japan before America officially declared war on Germany (Churchill ended the letter in a ceremonial manner, and later explained that "when you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite.").
Here's what he says in his memoirs ("The Grand Alliance," 539-540):
No American will think it wrong of me if I proclaim that to have the United States at our side was to me the greatest joy. I could not foretell the course of events. I do not pretend to have measured accurately the martial might of Japan, but now at this very moment I knew the United States was in the war, up to the neck and in to the death. So we had won after all! Yes, after Dunkirk; after the fall of France; after the horrible episode of Oran; after the threat of invasion, when, apart from the Air and the Navy, we were an almost unarmed people; after the deadly struggle of the U-boat war -- the first Battle of the Atlantic, gained by a hand's breadth; after seventeen months of lonely fighting and nineteen months of my responsibility in dire stress. We had won the war. England would live; Britain would live; the Commonwealth of Nations and the Empire would live. Once again in our long Island history we should emerge, however mauled or mutilated, safe and victorious. We should not be wiped out. Our history would not come to an end. We might not even have to die as invididuals. Hitler's fate was sealed. Mussolini's fate was sealed. As for the Japanese, they would be ground to powder. All the rest was merely the proper application of overwhelming force. The British Empire, the Soviet Union, and now the United States, bound together with every scrap of their life and strength, were, according to my lights, twice or even thrice the force of their antagonists. No doubt it would take a long time. I expected terrible forfeits in the East; but all this would be merely a passing phase. United we could subdue everybody else in the world. Many disasters, immeasurable cost and tribulation lay ahead, but there was no more doubt about the end.
Silly people, and there were many, not only in enemy countries, might discount the force of the United States. Some said they were soft, others that they would never be united. They would fool around at a distance. They would never come to grips. They would never stand blood-letting. Their democracy and system of recurrent elections would paralyse their war effort. They would be just a vague blur on the horizon to friend or foe. Now we should see the weakness of this numerous but remote, wealthy, and talkative people. But I had studied the American Civil War, fought out to the last desperate inch. American blood flowed in my veins. I thought of a remark which Edward Grey had made to me more than thirty years before -- that the United States is like "a gigantic boiler. Once the fire is lighted under it there is no limit to the power it can generate". Being saturated and satiated with emotion and sensation, I went to bed and slept the sleep of the saved and thankful.
Posted by: Matt Murphy at May 13, 2005 1:56 PMWell, DD is technically right but to call OJ a liar is way too much (though that is DD's standard operating procedure). You cannot read that speech as other than a statement by the President of the US that we will fight Germany. Clearly calulated to provoke a declaration by Germany so that our war declaration would be a "response".
I think FDR was right to fight the Germans but he clearly provoked the Germans by devices such as this. In the same way, the embargo and other things provoked the Japanese into stupidity.
Nothing wrong with any of this on FDR's part. Quite brillant actually.
Posted by: Bob at May 13, 2005 2:00 PMSilly people, and there were many, not only in enemy countries, might discount the force of the United States. Some said they were soft, others that they would never be united. They would fool around at a distance. They would never come to grips. They would never stand blood-letting. Their democracy and system of recurrent elections would paralyse their war effort. They would be just a vague blur on the horizon to friend or foe. Now we should see the weakness of this numerous but remote, wealthy, and talkative people.
All of which would have been true had OJ been president.
Posted by: daniel duffy at May 13, 2005 2:07 PMBob,
Hitler needed little or nothingin the way of provoaction when it came to waging aggressive war.
How is FDR stating the truth aboout Nazi Germany and the Axis on 12/9 a DoW?
How is this speech any different then past speeches condemning the Nazis?
And if FDR is this clever, how can he also be a "moron" as OJ says?
Posted by: daniel duffy at May 13, 2005 2:25 PMDaniel: You really are being overly touchy here. It was Roosevelt Administration policy from at least 1938 to get the US ready to go to war against Germany. That year, Congress approved the beginning of the two-ocean navy. The next year, the Neutrality Act was revised to let us start arming France and Britain. In 40 we instituted lend/lease and boats for bases, declared that England was our first line of defense and that it was official US policy to work for the defeat of Germany. In early 41, the American and English general staffs met from January through March to prepare for American entry into the war. Roosevelt expanded our claimed neutrality belt at sea to include U-Boat waters, we started building bases on Greenland and we put 4000 marines on Iceland to oppose a possible German invasion. In Asia, besides organizing an international embargo on Japan, we announced that our ships would start convoy duty and would shoot to kill. In late 41, Roosevelt met with Churchill on a British warship and they announced the Atlantic Charter.
There's nothing wrong with any of this, nor is it a conspiracy theory. Roosevelt may well have preferred that we get away with arming the Allies without fighting ourselves, but nobody really thought that was going to happen. To put it a different way, the American Firsters weren't stupid. They knew, and everyone else knew, that heading off the war would be a hard slog.
Posted by: David Cohen at May 13, 2005 2:25 PMTrue enough, and I don't agree with OJ on that...but sticking to the original point, it was obvious from Churchill's words and actions what the import of Pearl Harbor was. It's also clear that Roosevelt was targeting Hitler in this speech, whether or not the war was official yet. Everybody knew what was going to happen. OJ is attempting to point this out, not lying.
Posted by: Matt Murphy at May 13, 2005 2:26 PMHow is this speech any different then (sic)past speeches condemning the Nazis?
Location of the Pacific Fleet, for one thing.
Posted by: joe shropshire at May 13, 2005 2:54 PMOr one could actually say that Roosevelt declared war on Germany, on 11 September 1941, when he issued what has become called the "shoot on sight" order to the Altantic navel forces. The order was that any German or Italian warship that entered any waters considered "necessary for American defence" did so "at their own peril".
Posted by: Jerry at May 13, 2005 3:00 PMJerry,
All nations' territorial waters are inviolate.
David,
The war against Hitler was inevitable. Our use of the two year hiatus between Hitler's invasion of Poland and Pearl Harbor enabled us to get into a state of some military readiness. The facts though remain the facts. The decision to commence hostilities in the conflict between the US and Germany was made by Germany not by the US. They could easily have sat back and not declared war on us, perhaps forcing FDR's hand or, more likely, allowing FDR to wage war against Japan full bore and to take credit for keeping America as the last bastion of freedom.
Since they were preoccupied with the Soviets, that would certainly have been the wiser course, along with pressing informal negotiations with their friends and allies in Britain, any of whom could have stuck a shiv into Churchill at any moment, thereby ending British resistance to Hitler. But they chose to declare war against us, and they did so before we did against them(Under the US Constitution, OJ, only Congress has the power to declare war and Congress did not declare war against Germany prior to Germany's declaration against us), doing FDR's job for him. Outside of a few pro-Nazi diehards, nobody in America needed convincing about the need to get rid of Hitler after that.
Posted by: bart at May 13, 2005 3:10 PMBy my count FDR mentioned either Japan or the Japanese 22 times; Hitler, German, or Germany 20 times; Axis 6 times. Certainly this broad-brush word painting was not by accident.
I've always wondered what would have happened if Hitler had had the guile to send a sympathetic message to the American people on December 8th and in effect renounce his obligation to Japan. Actually he really didn't have an obilgation to declare war as the treaty he had with Japan only obligated him to do so if Japan were attacked.
Of course Hitler was well aware that the USN had been escorting British convoys halfway across the Atlantic for months, so he felt he was already at war with the US. Thus his December 11th declaration was, from his standpoint, merely a formality.
Posted by: George at May 13, 2005 3:21 PMBart, that all seems to say that Roosevelt judged Hitler shrewdly, even as he misjudged Stalin.
Posted by: joe shropshire at May 13, 2005 3:24 PMdaniel:
I'll accept your argument that FDR was to stupid to recoignize that this was a declaration of war. It does though show how easy it is to gin up a war the American people don't want.
Posted by: oj at May 13, 2005 3:35 PMdaniel:
There was never any question we'd win once we entered. Indeed, We'd have made short shrift of the USSR, though hilariously enough, you switch to exactly the position you're decrying once it gets to that point.
There was just no point to going and fighting the Nazis if we were going to hane the same territory to the Soviets.
Posted by: oj at May 13, 2005 3:43 PMSure there was: War with Germany was inevitable. War with the USSR wasn't.
Posted by: David Cohen at May 13, 2005 3:48 PMdaniel:
It's a formailty that's been insignificant in American history.
Posted by: oj at May 13, 2005 3:49 PMI've always wondered what would have happened if Hitler had had the guile to send a sympathetic message to the American people on December 8th and in effect renounce his obligation to Japan.
How lucky for us that monomaniacal dictators do not think.
Posted by: Matt Murphy at May 13, 2005 3:51 PMBart: That's the whole point. We were happy to work for Germany's defeat without actually being at war for as long as Hitler would let us get away with it. For that matter, he declared war and we recognized that a state of war existed, but we're the ones who decided to actually go fight the Germans. If we hadn't gone to North Africa, what were the Germans going to do?
Posted by: David Cohen at May 13, 2005 3:53 PMDavid:
Too few Americans wanted to squander life and money on another European war for it to be inevitable.
Posted by: oj at May 13, 2005 3:54 PMEventually, the Germans would have attacked us or given us a casus beli, or enough time would have gone by that we were eager for another war.
Posted by: David Cohen at May 13, 2005 4:01 PMAs Harry correctly points out, they'd already lost. They couldn't take Britain or Spain to the West nor the USSR to the East.
Posted by: oj at May 13, 2005 4:20 PMBart:
Funny thing about Roosevelt's order, he didn't limit it to territorial waters, which at the time was limited to three miles. He said any waters considered "necessary for American defence". And since at that time American naval forces where convoying British ships to the mid-Atlantic, and beyond, it meant any Atlantic waters where an American warship was located.
All US Naval and Germany Kriegsmarine encounters prior to Perl Harbor, USS Niblack/unknown U-boat, USS Greer/U-652, USS Kearny/U-568 and USS Reuben James/U-552 all happened well outside US territorial waters. Not to mention the American PBY crew on a "British Training Mission" that located the Bismark after the British Home Fleet had lost it.
Posted by: Jerry at May 13, 2005 4:21 PMThe smartest thing the Germans could have done would have been to return to the phony war once they had taken France.
Posted by: David Cohen at May 13, 2005 4:25 PMWhy even take France?
Posted by: oj at May 13, 2005 4:27 PMHaving created (to a large degree) Hitler as a foil to Stalin, the Christians reaped their reward by miscalculating that Gemany could defeat Russia.
It was a close thing, but it ensured that by the time that was evident, the USSR was too powerful to be attacked.
Orrin's position that the Christians should have allied with the Nazis, instead of just enabling them, is logical, if you don't care about Jews.
If you do, then things become more problematical.
Posted by: Harry Eagar at May 13, 2005 5:02 PMThat's what the Germans do.
Posted by: David Cohen at May 13, 2005 5:04 PMHarry:
I don't get it. If, as you rightly note, Hitler couldn't defeat Russia then what was the point of our getting involved in the war? No one fought it to save the Jews.
Posted by: oj at May 13, 2005 5:07 PMmaybe it was recognized that the west was going to have to deal with both forms of tyranny, and so we ganged up on the tougher foe (germans) so we would have the less capable foe to deal with later.
Posted by: cjm at May 13, 2005 8:13 PMExcept that neither was very tough.
Posted by: oj at May 13, 2005 8:20 PMDavid,
Sink our shipping with their U-Boats?
Jerry,
Territorial waters, in the absence of treaty, are what we say they are. Also, the principle is well-established that you do not sink other people's merchant shipping that shows up in a war zone, even if it is designed to supply combatants. We did, after all, go to war in WWI because of that. And we would certainly have a casus belli against North Korea, Iran and Syria if it were.
Posted by: bart at May 13, 2005 8:28 PMBart:
Actually in absence of treaty, territorial waters were well defined and understood in 1941 to be three miles. It wasn't until 1988 that President Reagan, by Presidential Proclamation No. 5928, extended the US territorial waters to 12 miles. This is not to be confused with Truman's proclamation on 28 September 1945 that claimed a 200 mile "Exclusive Economic Zone". Which while maintaining claim to all natural resources that were on, in, or under the water out to 200 miles, did not claim or attempt to claim it as territorial waters.
I found the following in a court decision:
The Court noted that while the U.S. territorial sea had been one marine league (i.e. three nautical miles) for nearly two centuries, Presidential Proclamation No. 5928 ("Proclamation") extended the U.S. territorial sea in 1988 from three to "[twelve] nautical miles . . ."
It is also interesting to note that one of the first orders to American submarine commanders, on December 8th 1941, was to "commence unrestricted submarine warfare". So for three days, technically we were doing to Japan (with Germany being the "neutral") what the Germans had been doing to the British (with the USA being the "neutral").
With regard to our entry into WWI my only observation would be that maybe Wilson was more principled and strict with respect to obeying "International Law"; and expecting all others to do the same. Roosevelt on the other hand knew everyone was an SOB and acted accordingly. I think a case can be made that Wilson was dragged into WWI while Roosevelt was, rightly I think, pushing/leading into WWII.
Posted by: Jerry at May 13, 2005 10:08 PMNow I know that OJ has a great deal of sympathy and empathy for Hitler, but the decision to commence hostilities was made by Hitler. He could have easily denounced the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor and refused to declare war on the US in support of his Axis ally. Japan had done the same thing to Germany by refusing to attack the USSR in Siberia.
This would have left FDR in an untenable postion as Congress and the American people would have refused to enter the war in Europe without a good reason. By declaring war on the US first, Hitler provided that reason.
Exccept that Hitler only declared war after FDR did.
Posted by: oj at May 14, 2005 8:28 AMNo he didn't OJ. Facts are hard things.
Posted by: daniel duffy at May 14, 2005 9:44 AMI do not think any American has any doubt of our ability to administer proper punishment to the perpetrators of these crimes.
Your Government knows that for weeks Germany has been telling Japan that if Japan did not attack the United States, Japan would not share in dividing the spoils with Germany when peace came. She was promised by Germany that if she came in she would receive the complete and perpetual control of the whole of the Pacific area-and that means not only the Far East, not only all of the islands in the Pacific, but also a stranglehold on the west coast of North, Central, and South America.
We also know that Germany and Japan are conducting their military and naval operations in accordance with a joint plan, That plan considers all peoples and nations which are not helping the Axis powers as common enemies of each and every one of the Axis powers.
That is their simple and obvious grand strategy. That is why the American people must realize that it can be matched only with similar grand strategy. We must realize for example that Japanese successes against the United States in the Pacific are helpful to German operations in Libya; that any German success against the Caucasus is inevitably an assistance to Japan in her operations against the Dutch East Indies; that a German attack against Algiers or Morocco opens the way to a German attack against South America.
On the other side of the picture, we must learn to know that guerilla warfare against the Germans in Serbia helps us; that a successful Russian offensive against the Germans helps us; and that British successes on land or sea in any part of the world strengthen our hands.
Remember always that Germany and Italy, regardless of any formal declaration of war, consider themselves at war with the United States at this moment just as much as they consider themselves at war with Britain and Russia. And Germany puts all the other republics of the Americas into the category of enemies. The people of the hemisphere can be honored by that.
The true goal we seek is far above and beyond the ugly field of battle. When we resort to force, as now we must, we are determined that this force shall be directed toward ultimate good as well as against immediate evil. We Americans are not destroyers-we are builders.
We are now in the midst of a war
Posted by: Franklin Delano Roosevelt at May 14, 2005 10:00 AM