This article gives further support to my contention that the reigning monarch (present and future ones) of the UK should not be Head of the Church of England and neither ought the Anglican be the established church of the nation.

I presume that QE II and Prince Charles are practicing Anglican Christians. I knownothing of Prince William's church affiliation (though I can safely presume it's Anglican) or of his personal theology. What if, as King William V, he were nominally Anglican yet a Bhuddist at heart? The Church of England must cease to be England's Church in name, for it has already ceased to be its Church in reality and practice.

Rather, Britain needs to return to the point where the monarch was actually the head of state, the Lords had real power, and the Church mattered. A good start would be for the Church of England to merge with the Catholic Church.

OJ:

Hasn't the Catholic Church suffered enough?

Can an "epistemological individualist" defy the law of gravity? Or live outside of the emotional experiences of billions of human beings?

Stalin was a monster, but we can understand what he did and how he lived. Nietzsche went insane. We can understand that. I don't think people have the power to be epistemological individualists. Sorry.

"A good start would be for the Church of England to merge with the Catholic Church."

You don't get out a lot, do you, Orrin.

merge my a**; we'll see them in Canossa or not at all!

Peter:

It's already pretty far advanced:

http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=547

oj - Look more closely, that press release was about the collapse of ecumenical efforts (in diplomatese, "would have to be put on hold") following the elevation of divorced gay bishop Eugene Robinson and the widespread support for that move in the Anglican Communion (in diplomatese, "recent developments").

In fact, the Catholic church now sees the Anglicans as farther removed from communion than the Orthodox and the Lutherans.

I read the original article in the Times the other week.

Only 7.9% go to traditonal Church services regularly. But it is a mistake to think that people are instead thronging to these mumbo-jumbo spiritual things in droves.

The figure practicing any of the 'spritual activities' was something like 3-4% of the population - so still only half the number who go to tradition Church services.

So nearly 90% of the UK population don't bother with religion at all.

(You no doubt think that indicates the collapse of our civilisation. I view it as a sign of a healthy, mature society.)

Also, it's true that the thrust of the article was actually about the failure of the Anglican church to retain its members, not the rise of a 'self' society. It seems most of the people turning to these 'alternative spiritualities' are ex-Anglicans.

Brit:

Healthy?

pj:

Yes, ditch homosexuality and they're back on track. It's a five hundred year movement back to reconciliation, a little bump in the road doesn't mean much.

...who simply declared: "I am God. I am God. I am God."

As Donna Kossy of Kooks Magazine put it, "These guys definitely do NOT hang out together. The Universe cannot have two centers."

Much less 250 million centers.
Or 7 Billion.
Let the fun begin --
Last God standing...

This is inevitable whenever you have a 'state church.' It becomes part of whatever establishment exists and has a far greater interest in preserving its rights and privileges than in ministering to the faithful. If the German churches receive a 7% tax from citizens courtesy of the government, are they going to be interested in opposing that same government whenever it wants to do something obviously contrary to scripture? Are they going to support it when it looks to reduce the budget and considers a 10% across the board budget cut?

In America, where we have no state church, religions have to respond to their parishioners for the most part. When the 19th century trust funds run out, the World Council of Churches membership will cease to exist, and conservative Protestants will be the entire framework. The Catholic Church is learning the hard way that its parishioners do not take kindly to their children being raped by clergy as they did perhaps in the Middle Ages which OJ loves so much. The Diocese of Spokane just filed for bankruptcy.

"It's a shift away from (the idea of) a hierarchical all-knowing institution"

Isn't the problem rather that far too many contemporary mainstream churches basically set no boundaries? Why should one go to a church where the priest/minister/whatever your call him/her/it tells you that God wants you to follow your urges?

This is not a good thing. It's what you get for not burning witches.

Fortunately, real social Darwinism will come to our rescue. Faith-based communities has a significant competitive acvantage over the secular, as they can coexist with a higher degree of freedom and innovation. Simply, a society without religious mores requires a higher level of state intrusion to keep order and to ameliiorate inequality. More control, less progress; less progress--you get the idea.

This is not a good thing. It's what you get for not burning witches.

Fortunately, real social Darwinism will come to our rescue. Faith-based communities has a significant competitive acvantage over the secular, as they can coexist with a higher degree of freedom and innovation. Simply, a society without religious mores requires a higher level of state intrusion to keep order and to ameliiorate inequality. More control, less progress; less progress--you get the idea.

Brian:

You've hit the nail on the head.

By common consensus here, the key reason the Anglican church is haemorraghing members is that it has lost its sense of confidence - of knowing it is absolutely right, of telling its members what the rules are, and warning them that they'll go to hell if they don't follow them.

Instead, they've gradually bent to every change in society: accepting openly gay priests, women priests, basically admitting that none of the Bible is to be taken literally, failing to define 'sin', etc.

But churchgoers want certainty.

OJ memorably described european churches as 'milque-toasty'. Well, the CofE is the milque-toastiest of them all.

oj - the gap between the Catholic Church and the Church of England is widening. The Church of England is becoming secular post-Christian and the Catholic Church is becoming more conservative and more faithful to Christian tradition. The Church of England is going to die -- the African-based Anglican churches will survive, and maybe there can be communion with them, but they'll have to split from the liberal-left branches first.

pj:

Yes. So reverse it. Submit to Rome and save the church.

Submit to Rome and be saved? That would save the institution, but not the Church (the body of believers). No, the faithful must submit to Christ for salvation. It's not about "me" or even the "institution", but about God.

Have the ravens left the Tower of London? Legend has it that if they ever do, England's glory will fade away. I think I hear some wings flapping.

LDForber

No, they're still there...

(...They clip the wings.)

Yes, that is going so wonderfully for the Catholic Church here in the US.

The Catholic Church that just demnstrated its power over the secularists in our elections? Yes, it's working brilliantly.

The Catholic Church's power over secularists in last week's election? I missed it. Neither do I recall seeing John Kerry wearing sack cloth & ashes, crawling on his knees, bare footed, up the cathedral steps this past week to seek papal forgiveness for his transgressions of Church doctrine.

If he'd carried Catholics he'd be president.

OJ,
Those 4 million evangelicals that didn't vote last time could explain his win. The blue northeast is about as Catholic as any other region of the country, probably moreso. You should know that.

Why is it that people who look to religion to give them immortality look at people who don't and call them self-centered. Belief is all about being self-centered, you only obey God to save yourself.

Robert:

You obey God because He commands it. The secular obey themselves because they think they're gods.

There are several reasons why, I, as an Episcopalian, can NOT "submit to Rome", as you suggest, OJ.

From the Episcopal Church's Articles of Religion:

XIX. Of the Church.

The visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithful men, in which the pure Word of God is preached, and the Sacraments be duly ministered according to Christ?s ordinance, in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same.

As the Church of Jerusalem, Alexandria, and Antioch, have erred; so also the Church of Rome hath erred, not only in their living and manner of Ceremonies, but also in matters of Faith.

XXII. Of Purgatory.

The Romish Doctrine concerning Purgatory, Pardons, Worshipping and Adoration, as well of Images as of Relics, and also Invocation of Saints, is a fond thing, vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God.

XVIII. Of the Lord?s Supper.

(...)

Transubstantiation (or the change of the substance of Bread and Wine) in the Supper of the Lord, cannot be proved by Holy Writ; but is repugnant to the plain words of Scripture, overthroweth the nature of a Sacrament, and hath given occasion to many superstitions.

XXX. Of both Kinds.

The Cup of the Lord is not to be denied to the Lay-people: for both the parts of the Lord?s Sacrament, by Christ?s ordinance and commandment, ought to be ministered to all Christian men alike.

XXXI. Of the one Oblation of Christ finished upon the Cross.

The Offering of Christ once made in that perfect redemption, propitiation, and satisfaction, for all the sins of the whole world, both original and actual; and there is none other satisfaction for sin, but that alone. Wherefore the sacrifices of Masses, in the which it was commonly said, that the Priest did offer Christ for the quick and the dead, to have remission of pain or guilt, were blasphemous fables, and dangerous deceits.

XXXII. Of the Marriage of Priests.

Bishops, Priests, and Deacons, are not commanded by God?s Law, either to vow the estate of single life, or to abstain from marriage: therefore it is lawful for them, as for all other Christian men, to marry at their own discretion, as they shall judge the same to serve better to godliness.

Joe:

Henry wanted to get jiggy. That wasn't sufficient cause to breakl with Rome.

When you get like that, there are times when I think Jack Chick and Dave Hunt have a point. God help me.

And just for anyone else who might not get the point (given that Semolina got into trouble with that on another thread); that was supposed to be sarcasm.

Whew, glad you cleared that up. I thought you were serious.

"You obey God because He commands it."

No, you obey God because you get something in return. If believers were not offered salvation, would they still obey?

Robert:

Man can't bind God to give him salvation.

Robert:

I(strive to)obey God, first and foremost, because he created me and loves me. His gift of salvation in and through Jesus Christ is the icing on the cake. I love icing, yet I would love eating the cake and be thankful for it even w/o the icing.

Dave,
So you admit that mortal life can be meaningful even without an eternal afterlife? When I try to say that, the theists all say "pish-posh".

Robert:

The afterlife has nothing to do with human dignity, which derives from being made in God's image and ordained to Him.

Noone can give humans dignity but humans. You either treat yourself with dignity or you don't. If you treat yourself with dignity, noone can take it away.

Robert:

Spoken like a white middle class American who's never experienced indignity.

OJ,
Spoken like a religious ideologue who has no clue what other people have experienced.

So you have experienced indignity? You made it sound like 6 million Jews died because they didn't have sufficient self-dignity.

You can't be guaranteed that others will respect your dignity. Even when others respect your dignity, you can lose it through your own actions. Just look at all the white middle class people who throw their dignity away on tell-all talk shows. The only true dignity comes from within.

Victor Frankl experienced the Holocaust first hand. Even within that extreme environment it was the personal qualities of individual people that determined if they succumbed to the indignities foisted upon them or if they were able to maintain their dignity.

Robert:

You're tiptoeing up to an insight. It's nopt about how you feel about yourself, which you seem to think is the only purpose religion serves, it's about commanding you to recognize the inherent dignity of others, which purpose only Judeo-Christianity fills.