To the left (those like Senators Dayton and Kennedy), the murder of Americans is justice; only actions committed by Americans can be atrocities.

Ah, but to the left that's a feature, not a bug. They've already made the word "terrorism" meaningless by throwing it at Israel for years (and extending it to any military action), and finally removing it from their vocabulary. You think Reuters et al. will ever again report a story where the US criticizes Cuba, Sudan, China, Iran, etc. for "human rights violations" (sneer quotes sure to be included) without pointing out that they are "allegations" whereas we KNOW that the US is guilty of worse.

The Left debases everything it touches. Unable to elevate, all they can do is level as low as possible.

Gonna be interesting to see how the people glorying in the showing of prison abuse photos handle the video of this atrocity. I would guess it's time to protect our sensitve natures, while incessantly lecturing us on how it's all Bush's fault.

The claim that this is a result of Abu Ghraib will be made, but it's false, as the Italian security specialist and Daniel Pearl show.

The bad effect, however, is that this case won't garner the same sympathy, if any, it would have before the torture scandal.

Raoul: Already happened. FOX showed a few repeats of the hostage speaking before his beheading, then announced that even these clips would not be shown again. I can understand that sensitivity in the context of his family's sensibilities, but if the family consents, then I say show the whole thing.

Conservatives argue with the left, stand up to the left, ignore the left, beat the left in elections, etc. But the surrender to the left on language leaves us forever gasping for air on lots of issues.

R.I.P Mr. Berg.

Derek:

Sympathy? Want tea with that? The point is it puts our mildly abusive behavior in perspective. Think anyone in Oklahoma cares if we were mean to Ba'athists now?

"The bad effect, however, is that this case won't garner the same sympathy, if any, it would have before the torture scandal."

Derek are you confidant about that statement? It's not the way I react, and I don't think I care for people, who would react that way, but you know you could be right. Maybe we will find out in November.

OJ,

No one seriously disputes Al Qaeda's viciousness. The reason the torture hurts us is that we went into this war piously proclaiming our moral infallibility. We set a higher standard for ourselves, as we should, and we fell. The consequence is horrid PR, and in a war of ideas, as this one is, PR counts, both at home and abroad.

h-man,

Quite frankly, the American people will have long forgotten about Nick Berg come November. They'll have long since been distracted by something else, probably yet more torture photos being released. I'm not saying that's right; it isn't, but that's the way it is.

On the other, the people in Iraq will still be seething over Abu Ghraib. That's why we're at a serious disadvantage in the contest of wills.

Derek -

Please give quotes where we claimed "moral infallibility" as opposed to moral superiority.

The prison abuse story has taken a mortal blow. If the execution was because the US wouldn't trade him for prisoners in Abu Ghraib, then the prisoners are terrorists, and torture, let alone humiliation, is more than they deserve. For middle America, the issue, if it ever was one, is dead.

Jack,

Are you really going to quibble over a term I used saracastically?

Derek:

I suspect the soap opera come November will be the Saddam trial, or maybe hand-wringing over the genocide in Sudan.

I'm sure the Bush Administration will try to time the Saddam trial at the most opportune moment in the election season. Whether that'll do him any good is another question.

Derek, you're probably exaggerating when you say "nobody" disputes Al-Queda's viciousness.

But many -- perhaps a majority and including Orrin -- do dispute the viciousness of Islam as a religion with a project.

It says more than the worst that I can say about Islam that Al-Queda thinks this tape will be received as a feature, not a bug, by its audience.

No doubt some Muslims will be revolted. But too many will be exalted.

They really are not like us.

I hope George is getting the message. He hasn't up to now.

Harry,

I suppose I should have qualified that, though it should go unspoken that I mean nobody worth listening to.

As to Islam, I generally agree that its theological make-up at the moment is intrinsically hostile to both free thought and democracy.

Harry/Derek:

I agree with you both as regards much of Sunni Islam , that's why we're reforming it. Shi'a is already compatible with democracy. Neither is any more viscious than Christianity which is after all the religion oppressing various Islamic nations, not vice versa, and which will radically alter the whole region by the time it's done. It did the same to Imperialism/Kaiserism, Nazism, Communism, and is not nearly done.

I am thankful that the average person -- the silent majority on whom the chattering classes has to look toward for resolve, and increasingly, protection -- don't see the world in the multifarious shades of gray that the latter do. (From the sound of it, a few here are more chatterers than average, which you may or may not take as a compliment.)

I think average folk know the difference between bad behavior, even punishable behavior, and atrocities. They never presume of moral infallibility, and moreover, know that all you have to be confident about is moral superiority against a specific enemy -- not a standard. They look at the enemy, and they see behaviors and threats, not signed documents, affidavits, inspector reports, two-sided declarations. If it threatens you like a terrorists, it acts like a terrorists, and it brags like a terrorist, it is a terrorist and they are all worth fighting at one point or another.

but know we pick few fights, and certainly fewer than we could get away with, and only after we have satisfied oursleves about having moral superiotiy over not an ideal but a specific enemy.

Derek:

Like many I think you simply misunderstand the nature of Christianity and crusades--we know we aren't good, but that we're better. That's sufficient.

But our pretension of being so much better than others we can dictate to them are shaken when we're caught double-dealing. That's the way it goes.

As for your faith in Shia' Islam, it strikes me as overly panglossian, to put it mildly. Not one of the influential Shi'ite parties that have arisen in Iraq are "democratic" in the sense you and I understand the word to mean. They're closer to hereditary fascism if anything.

Derek:

Huh? As Harry is fond of pointing out churchmen are buggering boys senseless but the Church doesn't hesitate to dictate how people should live their lives. We firebombed Germany and nuked Japan into democracies, what's a little naked pyramiding going to do to our moral certitude?

Haven't seen it mentioned anywhere, and I could be wrong, but Mr. Berg (given his surname and urban Northeastern US origin) could have been Jewish - making this doubly odious. Don't think for a minute the Al-Qaeda & affiliates would have overlooked it.

Bruce,

Mr. Berg was more likely of Scandinavian origin unless the name was changed or altered in the past.

From my own point of view; after bearing the guilt trips thrust upon me by the unrelenting media, which I despise, the annoucement today lifted a great weight from my heart. Selfishly, it provided the perspective I was seeking. Perhaps others may feel the same way.

Mr. Berg did not die in vain; he was made a martyr ... may he rest in peace.

kill them all. Let God sort it out.

oj:

I don't think it's Sunni Islam as much as it is the messed-up state of the Arab world. I doubt the majority of Arabs being Shia would necessarily have done much to alter their behaviour. Hezbollah after all is a pretty firmly Shia group.

And firebombing Japan and Germany was arguably done in order to win a military contest. I'm not sure how forcing inmates to simulate oral sex has much efficacy on the battlefield.

Ali:

Hezbollah is rapidly evolving into a political party as much as a terrorist group.

If there were a city we could bomb to stop the insurgency we would--instead we have to develop intelligence. Nudes seem less drastic than nukes, no?

I dunno, oj. Judging by what we've been hearing, I think they'd prefer to be nuked.

It's a principle thang.

Now I realize we might not understand it, but we should at the very least respect it.

(Isn't respect what this is all about?)

1) You could say the same about Hamas. Frankly the Arabs could still be rock-worshipping pagans and their response at being invaded by foreigners would probably still be the same. The dispute is essentially one over territory

2) If there was an actual military\political purpose as to the treatment of prisoners in Abu Ghraib that would have made it at least understandable. AFAIK there doesn't seem to be one beyond the military losing control. And I'm fairly sure intel obtained via torture, beatings and sexual humiliation would probably have a fair chance of being suspect at least compared to what you could get via sodium pentothal treatments.

Ali:

Agreed--upon creation of a Palestinian state Hamas will have responsibilities thrust upon that will speed its evolution even further.

The testimony yesterday was that they were dependent on such intelligence. Sodium pentothal viiolates Geneva too, doesn't it?

Barry:

Note that they don't fight in the open though.

Genecis: Mr. Berg was a Jew. His father said so, saying further that his son had not been religious earlier but had been becoming so.

Except for the radio talk shows playing the audio with commentary, the Berg Beheading has gone down the Memory Hole as unevents refs unpersons (doubleplusungood).

After all, it might increase support for the war and for Bush, prevent Kerry (who by the way Served In Vietnam) from the White House (where he can increase everybody's chocolate ration from twenty grams to ten), and of course Our Enlightened Betters can't let that happen, can they?

(See how Allah blinds the infidel for slaughter?)

the savage murder of Nick Berg shows once again that we are dealing with a culture of barbarians. where is the hue and cry from prominent muslims anywhere over the murder of this innocent young man?
it is indeed time to start dealing with these creatures with a level of brutality they will understand. for every american killed by these animals 1000 iraqis should be executed and their mass graves filled with bacon. you foolish liberals out there put THAT in your pipes and smoke it.
and by the way WHERE on the web IS this militant islamic website that shows this video? we here in the US could shut that site down and others like it that spread evil with viruses and worms and put these scum off the web.

Robert:

http://www.csmonitor.com/specials/sept11/dailyUpdate.html

To many people have died in vain.