Off topic, but one does wonder how much the Second Vatican Council contributed to this.

I saw a partial list of the dead, and one thing that struck me were the number of immigrants from Latin America, especially Peru.

Paul: Normally, you're crystal clear. This time, that sounds like a non-sequitur. Put as I orignally expressed it: Huh?

I laugh at my own foolishness. My question is, Has Vatican II weakened or strengthened the RCC? I did not intend to imply that it somehow contributed to the Madrid bombing.

Apologies for non-attribution - maybe from here. Anyway, a comment was made about how the Spanish marched on their feet on Friday and voted on their knees on Sunday.

Paul: Despite my ultramontanist leanings, I tend to think that SV2, as we call it in the 'hood, was a necessary, long-run corrective, and therefore strengthening measure. Did it lead to the collapse of the Catholic Church in Europe, and in Little Europe (Quebec, Mexico, etc.)? Nah. The sixty years before that had been a long tearing down of the foundations of civilization. Vatican II became a by-word, a totem for people who thought "change" meant "I can do what I want." The damage to European Catholicism was decades old by the time John XXIII called the ecumenical council.

And, as a good Papist, I should add that an Ecumenical Council is by definition infallible; ergo, logically, it could not weaken the Church.

Paul, it didn't help that the Church held two ecumenical councils in less than 100 years, with highly divergent teachings, under the rubric of infallibility. As with politicians, the old flip-flop is never good for credibility.

Robert: Funny, I'm not aware of any flip-flopping at VCI and VCII. Do clarify, with attention to specific, dogmatic positions.

Rick T.

Sounds like Mark Steyn to me, but not so!

Chris,

Vatican I - from "Profession of Faith"

"This true catholic faith, outside of which none can be saved, which I now freely profess and truly hold, is what I shall steadfastly maintain and confess, by the help of God, in all its completeness and purity until my dying breath, and I shall do my best to ensure [2] that all others do the same. This is what I, the same Pius, promise, vow and swear. So help me God and these holy gospels of God."

Vatican II
CHAPTER II - ON THE PEOPLE OF GOD
16.
"...Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*)... "

My mother learned her catechism in the church of Vatican I, and I learned from her that anyone who was not a Catholic was going to Hell. As we can see, after Vatican II, this is no longer the case. Protestants and Moslems and more can be saved as well.

Kinda makes it not so special to be a Catholic anymore. Makes you feel like those people who buy government flood insurance, and then after a big flood the government bails everyone out anyhow. Where religion is involved, inclusiveness is a big mistake. You lose the incentive for joining, or for staying in.

That, and the credibility gap around infallibility due to the flip-flop.

"the birthrate fell from one of the highest to one of the lowest in the world. That already has been the fate of other Catholic strongholds, such as Canada's province of Quebec. There the fertility rate dropped from 4.95 children per woman in 1961 to 1.57 in 1996. "

Mexico is down to 2.2, Brazil to 2.1. Both are still dropping rapidly.

Is there something about Catholicism that when combined with a wealthy enough economy results in a fertility crash to below replacement?

I hope someone can disprove that hypothesis, but for now it seems at least plausible.

In 2003, Mexico's fertility rate was 2.53, well above replacement.

The US is a mostly Protestant nation, and sans immigrant women, America's fertility rate is 1.9, below replacement.

There does seem to be something about a high GDP per capita that inhibits population growth, but even relatively poor places like Russia and Poland are experiencing negative population growth and very low fertility rates.

Michael:

America has been over two pretty consistently--that drop off may well just be a temporary response to 9-11 and economic slowdown.

Robert:

Three salient points:

One: The Church now, then, and always considered "catholic" to be an adjective describing itself literally, not denominationally. Thus, the Presbyterians (no offense, Paul, if you're reading this) are, in a sense, a splinter from the Church; the Church is catholic and, not coincidentally, manifest physically, though not exclusively, in the institution headed by the Holy See. Re-read the bit from VCI.

Two: The VCII bit simply restates centuries old catholic (small-c) eschatology. There is no conflict there, so long as whoever was reading their catechism remembers the bit about the Bride of Christ reunited on the last day. And note the careful clarifiers on intent. Your understanding speaks to poor catechesis, not flip-flopping.

Three: Again, I note the intent clarifier. Absent that, you're right, it's overinclusive; however, there must be an active seeking of God, and an openness to salvation.