um...God didn't die on the cross

And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

"a" is probably a Moslem. They don't believe that Jesus died on the cross.

If He didn't the story makes no sense.

I don't often read that. In fact, I've never read that.

And I don't believe it. The Jesus story is just an elaborated version of the Osiris myth. Gods die in almost every primitive culture I know about. The death and rebirth of god was celebrated from Denmark to, at least, Iran; in Mexico and Central America; and in Hawaii.

Of course Osiris proves the point. He was a mortal.

You stuck your foot in it that time, Orrin.

?

The wages of sin is death and with it comes eternal separation from God. To save us Jesus had to become our substitute, to become sin and directly experience what that separation felt like at the point of death.

The hell of fire and pointy pitchforks is (mostly) Dante's creation. The real Sheol is more like a roadside garbage dump, sort of like where Jesse was discarded by her owner in Toy Story 2. Jesse's feelings at being separated (forever) from her owner is a good analogy to what Christ felt at that moment.

Harry,
If the Passion is just a "an elaborated version of the Osiris myth," how come it's one of the best attested events in history?

There is more historical evidence for Jesus' life, death and resurrection than there is for Socrates.

It's not mythical. It happened.

not a moslem, presbyterian. God did not die for us, and i'm surprised that you devout believers would say such a thing. He sent his Son to die for us, but God did not die for us. Why would anyone follow a religion whereby their God died?

See, Harry?

Are presbyterians really that unclear on the concept of the Trinity?

Harry, have you read what C.S. Lewis had to say about the very fact you mentioned?

I was going to point out what C.S. Lewis said on this subject as well (the Osiris myth). In the western world we tend to make a clear distinction between myth and fact.

Anyone who is willing to look at the world from more than a purely existential viewpoint would agree that there is more to a story than we can feel, see, hear, etc. So the fact that the death and resurrection story occurs many times in mythology throughout the history of humanity, even if the stories did exist before Christ was crucified, it doesn't explain away a historical event that happened in space and time. It affirms it. Christianity is both myth and truth.

Of course, whether or not you agree depends on your underlying assumptions about reality and how we can know anything. No amount of argument on my part is going to change that.

this may appear like semantics to most of you, but in fact it is not. from a theological perspective, saying God died is heresy.

say 'Christ', 'Lord', 'He', 'Son of Man', etc. but do not say 'God' died. if you guys really want to debate this from a theological standpoint then that is fine, but please do not assume that an entire reformist doctrine is out of touch with Christianity because i have made this point. Of course presbyterians understand that Trinity, if not, they wouldn't be a Christian.

this may appear like semantics to most of you, but in fact it is not. from a theological perspective, saying God died is heresy.

say 'Christ', 'Lord', 'He', 'Son of Man', etc. but do not say 'God' died. if you guys really want to debate this from a theological standpoint then that is fine, but please do not assume that an entire reformist doctrine is out of touch with Christianity because i have made this point. Of course presbyterians understand that Trinity, if not, they wouldn't be a Christian.

this may appear like semantics to most of you, but in fact it is not. from a theological perspective, saying God died is heresy.

say 'Christ', 'Lord', 'He', 'Son of Man', etc. but do not say 'God' died. if you guys really want to debate this from a theological standpoint then that is fine, but please do not assume that an entire reformist doctrine is out of touch with Christianity because i have made this point. Of course presbyterians understand that Trinity, if not, they wouldn't be a Christian.

who, sorry for the multi-posts above, server issues here.

If Christ wasn't God then what was the point?

as i said, it might be mere semantics, but saying that 'God' died is not the same as saying 'Christ' died. for one, as the Trinity points out, they are all 3 parts of the exact same 'God', endowed equally. Thusly, it seems quite clear that while 'Christ' died, 'God' did not. ugh, this never lends itself well to written word. suffice it to say it makes much more sense when verbally debated/discussed (especially in theological courses)

As long as we're on the subject, I've always wondered about the following: Did Christ exist prior to his conception? Before Jesus was conceived, was the Trilogy the Duology? Was G-d unitary? Did G-d split himself into three in order to send Jesus to Earth? Why three? Where did the Holy Spirit come from? What's the point of the Holy Spirit, anyway?

The Holy Ghost is just the medium by which God acts in the world, as when Mary becomes pregnant:

THE NICENE CREED

I believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light; Very God of Very God; begotten, not made; being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made; Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven; and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven; and sitteth on the right hand of the Father, and He shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end'.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost; the Lord and Giver of Life; Who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; Who spake by the prophets. And I believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And I look for the resurrection of the dead; and the life of the world to come. Amen.

David:

I once was lucky enough to have it explained by an extremely knowledgable priest and I remember well the Eureka moment when I finally understood.

Five minutes later it was gone. Don't try too hard.

The Trinity is hard to get your head around. (In fact ultimately you can't.) But some things we do know from scripture. Christ was neither conceived nor created. John 1:1-3 explains this clearly,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made." (Word = Christ is spelled out in 1:14.)

Although his physical incarnation was through Mary (hence Jesus is 'begotten' [= birthed] from God), he existed before that, eternally.

Peter, if it were easy to understand we wouldn't need priests.

It's easy to see why someone wouldn't believe it, but not why they wouldn't understand it:

THE NICENE CREED

I believe in one God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible; And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of His Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light; Very God of Very God; begotten, not made; being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made; Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down from heaven; and was incarnate by the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate. He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven; and sitteth on the right hand of the Father, and He shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end'.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost; the Lord and Giver of Life; Who proceedeth from the Father and the Son; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified; Who spake by the prophets. And I believe in one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. And I look for the resurrection of the dead; and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Please don't anybody tell 'a' about Charles Westley!

Oops, hit Post before I finished my thought.

I don't know what flavor of Presbyterian 'a' might be, but out here at any rate we do have hymns by those Methodist boys in your hymnal.

To give some credit 'a' recapitulates one of the oldest Christian heresies, that of Arianism. And like the question of Job it deserves a legitimate answer. The answer is that that the Word was God (Jn 1:1) and that he pre-existed before everything else, which is plainly explicit as anything can be in the Bible.

If your belief system runs outside of the Bible, well, I can't help you there. But please don't assert that Christians who believe in the Bible believe otherwise.

Thanks, everyone.

If we relied on the kind of evidence we have for the Jesus story to know about, say, the Declaration of Independence, we wouldn't have a single written word available. Just whatever somebody claimed to remembers he was told about something his greatgreatgreatgreat grandfather did back in 1770, or was it 1750?

As far as I know, and you guys correct me if I'm wrong, the oldest Christian document dates from no earlier than about 250. About the distance from the alleged Resurrection as we are from 1776.

Yes, and as we see even despite specific sources folks like you are confused.

Harry:

Slight correction: the first Biblical fragments date from about (roughly) 140 AD, and there are 'outside' sources (Iraeneus via Polycarp) that go straight to John the Apostle.

I believe fragments of the gospel of Mark have been found and dated to within 50 years of the crucifixion.