March 4, 2008
BEING A DEMOCRACY DOESN'T MAKE THEM SANCROSANCT...:
US plotted to overthrow Hamas after election victory (Suzanne Goldenberg, 3/04/08, The Guardian)
The Bush administration, caught out by the rise of Hamas, embarked on a secret project for the armed overthrow of the Islamist government in Gaza, it emerged yesterday.Vanity Fair reports in its April edition that President George Bush and the secretary of state, Condoleezza Rice, signed off on a plan for the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, to remove the Hamas authorities in Gaza. The plan called for Washington's allies in the region to funnel arms and salaries to Fatah fighters who would lead a rising against Hamas.
...but if we're going to work to thwart their self-determination we can hardly complain that they don't like us much. Posted by Orrin Judd at March 4, 2008 8:53 AM
"Vanity Fair reports . . ."
I have more faith in the National Enquirer.
Posted by: Jim in Chicago at March 4, 2008 10:11 AMYeah, but at what point does a President deal with the reality that "they don't like us much" is foundational, and not the slightest bit altered by anything we have done, are doing, or possibly will do tomorrow.
Posted by: Andrew X at March 4, 2008 10:32 AMIt's not like they liked us much before they got to vote.
Posted by: Brandon at March 4, 2008 11:42 AMJim took the words out of my mouth.
Posted by: erp at March 4, 2008 12:01 PM"...it emerged yesterday"?
From where, Sy Hersh's mouth?
Self-determination....hmmm - Hamas won parliamentary elections, but not the presidency. So they self-determined their way to ruling Gaza, by murder, their favorite pastime. Would they permit another election? OJ says yes, most of us say no.
The comments above are indisputably true. Hamas is not going to view the US any differently, unless we decide to buy them out or kill them all. Then they might kiss the ring a bit.
But choosing Fatah as the proxy? Not too smart. It would have been better to pay the Egyptian army to clean out the place.
The Palestinians are like a 48 year-old whore, unable to muster much attention anymore, and with declining pricing power. They need a change, and it ain't coming from their usual pimps. They need a new friend. And there are only two who will help them, but that means a new paradigm.
Posted by: ratbert at March 4, 2008 12:34 PMOderint dum Metuant.
Posted by: Lou Gots at March 4, 2008 12:58 PMThey'll win the presidential too this time because they'll contest it. They're the popular government.
We're just being childish.
Posted by: oj at March 4, 2008 3:34 PMThey don't like s because we deny them self-determination. Once they're a state they'll be a normal one.
Posted by: oj at March 4, 2008 3:38 PMOJ, you're just wrong on this. Hamas is a gang of murdering goons with aspirations to tyranny. There's only one proper and moral response to murdering goons and tyrants: it involves the liberal application of high explosives, Rule 303, and the occasional gallows.
Posted by: Mike Morley at March 4, 2008 3:44 PMIf they're the popular government, then the rockets into Israel are an act of war. Isn't one way of fighting a war to destabilize the enemy government? Why should Hamas be surprised? Why should you?
Hamas has no way forward to 'govern' Gaza. Their primary accomplishment in the past 15-18 months has been to blow open the border with Egypt, which was then re-closed about a week later. Their love of theater, and victimology, is their only real apparent skill. It is also their downfall. Nobody wants to see the show anymore.
Fatah is no better, which is why the Palis as a whole are in bad shape. They need a new voice, because all the old ones have abused them so much.
Posted by: ratbert at March 4, 2008 7:25 PMAnd then in a few years you invite Menachem to the White House. Nations are made by murdering thugs.
Posted by: oj at March 4, 2008 7:49 PMYes, the rocket attacks are an act of war. They've been at war with Israel since it was forced upon them. The only question is how long Israel wants the war to last. Sharon realized they were losing it and was ready to end it. His successors aren't as wily.
Posted by: oj at March 4, 2008 7:54 PM