I'll bet that if we think really hard, we could remember that some Cassandra type predicted this mare's nest about a year ago. I seem to recall a prediction about the Republicans crashing like the Hindenburg.

Look, however much I like Catholics, hard workers, soccer players and Siluetas Metallicas shooters, I have to see bad things arising. This cynical sham just cannot be sold. The American people are not that dumb.

The trust is blown. Immigration reform is not going through on blind faith that the enforcement provisions are actually going to be enforced. That "one-day-to-check-the-records" scam told us all we needed to know.

We are going to have to try again. This time the bill is going to have to be drafted after due consideration of all the interests and concerns, not just those of La Raza and the plutocracy.

Lou:

This wahoo agrees with you.

Mr. Gots, how? We can't get the security people to take TB seriously, and that could kill them personally. Not enough people want to stand on the new Berlin Wall.....

Lou, Rick,

I would just like to say that the trust with Bush on immigration WAS NEVER THERE. Again, Bush, before he became president, sent a signal that he wanted a solution to this issue. This did not sit well with the Wahoos who OWN this issue, who only want a "solution" on their own terms/conditions/timetable.

That's the spirit, Lou! The opponents will convince themselves that's what they've done and they'll give us Reagan/Simpson II. Or we can just keep importing them illegally and whining about it. All that's at issue is whether we're going to treat them decently, legalize them, or indecently, continue the charade of "illegality."

The guards on the Berlin Wall pointed the other way ...

Posted by: pjbbuzz at June 12, 2007 3:38 PM

How do you figure PJbuzz? The guards on the Berlin Wall shot people trying to escape oppression and get to freedom. Who would the guards on the Mexican Wall be shooting?

I'd like to ask for a moratorium on the risible Berlin Wall analogy. There are plenty of issues to discuss without resorting to that.

The Berlin Wall kept East Germans citizens from leaving their country. East German guards shot their own people when they attempted to leave.

If Mexico built a wall to prevent Mexicans from leaving, it might be a fair analogy to compare Mexico to East Germany.

The U.S. is not preventing its citizens from leaving, nor is it shooting its citizens. In fact, it's not shooting Mexicans regularly either. Two Border Patrol agents recently went to jail for shooting a Mexican drug dealer in the hindquarters. Comparing us to the Stasi in communist East Germany is not an accurate view of history.

That's my point KB. We are not East Germany, and don't have the mindset needed to "Close a Border". Perhaps you can give me an example of a secure border that didn't require shooting people in cold blood......

Walls are a function of fear. Americans aren't fearful people.

Just for the record, I'm for a significant increase in legal immigration. Immigration leads to greater prosperity. Anyone who has read the late Julian Simon would understand the correlation between population growth and prosperity.

I also believe we should make it much simpler and faster to be legal here. Our immigration process is disgraceful in my opinion. Nonetheless, there is nothing wrong with enforcing laws as they are written--with or without a border fence.

Speaking of disgraceful, I also believe the rhetoric Robert and OJ have used is disgraceful--and inaccurate.

Could we address the actual history and lighten up on inflammatory rhetoric ('shoot in cold blood')?

Robert writes:

"That's my point KB. We are not East Germany, and don't have the mindset needed to "Close a Border". Perhaps you can give me an example of a secure border that didn't require shooting people in cold blood......"

Robert, I'd like to see your documentation for the thousands of illegal immigrants who have been shot in 'cold blood' by US Border Patrol agents. I'll wait...

Robert, East Germany was a prison state keeping people in. All prisons do that.

OJ, your 'walls are a function of fear' comment is, well, silly. Do you have walls at home? I suspect you do. Would you invest in a business that did not lock its doors at night? I know you like to deliver pithy one liners, but that one does not work.

KB, I recommend a couple of tequila shots for you to calm down.

Then maybe you will see that Robert's point is that the border is *not* secure because Americans do *not* want to shoot people in cold blood.

HOWEVER a secure border would *require* thousands of dogs, electronic monitoring, landmines, a million miles of razor wire, a billion dollar budget AND shooting in cold blood.

No, we don't have walls around our home. There are some rich folks in town who do. They're trying to keep us inferior folk out too. We have an Italian neighbor who put up a fence, but he's clinically paranoid. Besides, it's to keep his Canadian next door neighbor from killing his trees or some such insanity.

Orrin,
You gotta feel good, or depressed, as the only sane voice here.
Mike

The Senator letter, which basically says that a huge boondoggle complicated bill is not needed as enforcing laws already on the books will be enough, makes a lot of sense. Polls consistently showed that a large majority of Americans (70% range) were ok with a normalization plan for illegals already here as long as steps were taken to better control or reduce future illegal immigration. So apparently 70%+ of the American people are wahoos.

It makes exquisite sense--it's how the Right will be instrumental in passing the amnesty.

Thanks for your advice Randall. I guess you're right. By saying we need to make immigration easy, simple and legal, I apparently was inflammatory.

I still don't get the 'shoot in cold blood' reference. Do you think there will be waves of people scaling the wall only to be repelled by rabid militiamen armed with rifles? If you do, maybe you should take your tequila prescription.

Consider Switzerland for example. They have secure borders, but I sincerely doubt if they've shot too many people whether in hot or cold blood.

Walls a function of fear? Even heaven has walls and gates. Just whom does God fear?

Man.

003:022 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us,
to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand,
and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

003:023 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden,
to till the ground from whence he was taken.

003:024 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the
garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned
every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.