As though the Oxford Union has a terrific reputation for defending Western culture and upholding Western values---unless, that is, self-destruction is a Western value....

It's merely 1930s redux (but then, that's been said about as often as it's been vociferously denied---denied by those sympathetic with Oxford Unionists).

How long dear lord, how long, must we endure these fools?

Posted by: erp at May 3, 2007 7:43 AM

This is why we cast off their oppressive joke...err, ah...yoke 231 yeare ago!

If they were really bright they would have joined the "brain drain."

I met Jamal Harwood a few years ago. Didn't know he was a member of Hizbut Tahrir, let alone the leader. Smart guy but his views on economics were a little disappointing.

What's with this criticism of the Oxford Union? The pro-American side won and you'd get far harsher criticism of the US at most colleges in North America.

Ali
No, it's no longer considered a debatable issue at US colleges. OK, maybe at West Point or Anapolis.

The article includes a reprint of Jonah Goldberg's lecture notes--and they rock! as my kids would say.

Ali, the criticism is this - the entire question is a gratuitous insult. You won't ever hear the Oxford Union debate whether Islam should ever have existed; or whether Russia should have been permitted to exist.

This, Ali, is the same argument leveled at Israel; it should never have been permitted to exist; it ought not exist; its existence is illegal and an affront; Israel should be destroyed. It is the untermensch argument all over again; you aren't a real human; you aren't worthy of the rights of a human; you are fit only to be a slave; you should never have been born; we'll correct the 'problem' created by your existence right now.

That is the problem, and that is where the sheer effrontery of the question sits; and that is where letting such an insult pass leads.

They say we should never have been born? Well, what are you going to do about it, Percy?

Posted by: Mikey at May 3, 2007 12:41 PM

It's funny. Of course the Brits had regrets with the founding of the US. George Washington had spent eight years of his life, and countless American lives to found the country despite the Brits' violent objections. The French regret our founding too since they were sabotaged by the pesky Lafayette to impose a "dictator" to take over Washington's command. The Germans regret... The Russians regret...

So? They don't love us. Should we care?

Mikey:

I think they were proposing the US shouldn't have been founded as a separate polity. I doubt it was in favour of genocide or future Americans never being born.

Heck, I think oj's said in the past the American revolution was a mistake.

Ali

You're correct and my original remark was sarcasm indicating that liberal professors in the US assume that, not only would it be best that the US not exist, but also that European man should never have migrated here in the first place. Think Ward Churchill.

Ali, I was taking the argument to the next step. Obviously, the members of the Oxford Union would be aghast if one suggested that genocide of Americans would be the proper solution to easing their regret that the USA was founded. I am not quibbling with that.

What I was doing was expanding the argument and pointing out the insult of such a question. "We regret your nation came into existence." That is deeply insulting and I do not think that it is a far leap from regretting the USA's founding to wishing it would go away, to actively or tacitly supporting those who would make it go away.

It was a rude, uncouth debate topic to ask the members of a nation to justify their coming into existence as a nation. As rude as it is to walk up to a man and say "We regret you were even born."

Posted by: Mikey at May 3, 2007 2:59 PM

I don't know about that, Mikey. I get into discussions all the time about whether the Muslims in present-day Pakistan would have been better off if partition from India had never happened. To me
it's generally fair grounds for discussion.

We are different, Ali. The partition is different from the American experience. To say that our existence as a nation is regrettable (and it is important to note that America is not defined by a single religion or a single ethnic group, but rather as the application of an aspiration that anyone can join if they want too) is an insult to me.

I do not believe that it was intended as an insult, but it proves that for all their intelligence and education they truly do not know Americans. We were the despised, the desperate. We fled Europe, and to have the natives of that continent debating whether we should have existed is an attack.

We saved them thrice and to have them debate that topic - I'm sorry, but no - that is a slap. To the devil with them; they can fix Kosovo and the Balkans without us. Oh wait. They can't.

We'll just have to agree to disagree, I think.

Posted by: Mikey at May 3, 2007 6:18 PM

Ali, where do you stand on the partition of India? It seems to me that all concerned would have been better off if India wasn't partitioned and the English stayed around for a couple of more decades.

Posted by: erp at May 3, 2007 6:21 PM

I don't know how things would have turned out if partition hadn't occurred. The communal tensions were there anyway and while Muslims in Pakistan would have benefited from the political stability that India has, they'd have been saddled with five decades of Nehruvian socialism which would not have gone down well.

I think the bad blood and terrible relations between India and Pakistan that resulted from partition was immensely regrettable and that's been a severe hindrance to both countries. I'd have been in favour of anything that would have avoided that.

If India were not partitioned, would there be continuous sectarian wars between Hindus and Muslims?

Possibly. Tensions were high all the way through the 1920s to the 1940s.

Had the British defied pressure from the world-wide leftist movement and continued to provide Anglo-style stability in India, perhaps Nehru would have been a no-show.

Forced ousting of British colonials and to a lesser extent other Europeans from Asia and Africa before the native population was ready to take over was a tragic mistake leading to famine and death of millions of innocents.

Posted by: erp at May 4, 2007 2:29 PM