Are we slowly becoming a police state it sure looks like it

You can't get on an airline without non only showing a government issued photo ID, but also being subjected to a search. Do these folks really think that their complaints about showing ID to vote will gain any traction.

OTOH, this bill would certainly cause many "voters" of Chicago, Minneapolis, etc. to cease to cast their votes.

Wally, are you that naive? It is another NYT propaganda to try to dislodge the Republican hold on the House. The piece's assertion that "they could prevent millions of eligible voters without driver’s licenses" is definitely untrue. Eligible voters are required to show a govt. issued photo ID, not a driver's license. Are we in a police state when one has to show two pieces of photo IDs to board a plane, has to show a photo ID to open a bank acct. Why is showing a photo ID to vote that bad? It may disenfranchize those who awaken every election day from Chicago's cemetery to dutifully vote for the Democrats, and those illegals who don't need papers to vote in Michigan. I apologize for their disenfranchizement. But shouldn't they vote in places where they came from, rather than in the police state of America?

If we ever have an ID that can't be duplicated and/or forged, Democrats will only win in the inner city ghettos and in college towns, and if students are no longer able to vote from their campus addresses, scratch college towns.

Hate to say it, but I think we should have ID cards and soon.

Hopefully, quickly, not slowly. It's silly not to have a national ID card.

Wally, it's obvious you don't really know what a police state is and what living in a police state really means.

When you have your luggage always packed ready with clothes and toiletries because you don't know if and when the government might arrest you arbitrarily and condemn you to a labor camp, that's when you know you live in a police state. That was life for the average Soviet citizen under Stalin.

When you are forced to kill your pet dog because the government doesn't want dogs to bark and alert the neighborhood when it comes in the middle of the night to arrest you, that's when you know you live in a police state. That was life for China's city dwellers under Mao.

I have lived in a police state. The United States is not a police state. It is, in fact, the freest country in the world.

I can't get on the casino boat w/o showing my license cos I look under 35.

Togh tooties - show the photo!

X,

You need a building permit to change an outlet from a two prong to a 3 prong.

The Education System has your children write and hand in "jounrals", where they don't correct grammar or spelling, but they can monitor what your home life is like.

Chicago is using satellites to find if you have a pool, deck, or garage that isn't on their tax rolls. If they find one, you get a letter notifying you of a re-assessmemt and a hefty tax increase.

One could chronicle the 100s of ways acts like HIPPA, FOIA and other "Orwellian" named legislation is building the apparatus to turn the growing army of government employees into a bureaucratic class whose only job is to monitor the rest of us.

Is America the freest country in the world? Measured by Heritage (or Freedom House?) it dropped from one of the top 7 to 13 a few years ago.

Are we a police state? Not at all. Are we still relatively free? Yes. Is that any reason to pretend "it can't happen here." Never. It CAN happen here.
___

As to the matter at hand, disenfranchising people too stupid to get an ID is a good thing. They are the shock troops trained to vote the rest of us into the "police state" Wally seems to worry about.

What value is there to the vote of someone who can't figure out how to get a photo ID?

You may be on to something there. Why not have a quiz, anyone who doesn't pass doesn't vote. Some questions on world geography ought to improve the results.

- Peace

Dave King,
Even better would be to limit voting to persons that have children, own property or have served in the US military AND have valid ID. That would be getting somewhere.

Bruno, stupid bureaucratic rules exist in every civilized country in the world. That is the nature of bureaucracy. Live in any country outside the United States, and you'll discover the eternal truth of this quickly enough.

Unfortunately, everything you describe as a potential form of government surveillance is done by practically every advanced democracy in the world. Go to any of the developed economies in Europe or Asia, and you'll find out how much more government monitoring there is in those countries than there is in America. The problem with surveys of political freedom is that it is very difficult to measure something that is qualitative as much as it is quantitative.

The point I'm making is that there is a universe of difference between a true police state and the United States of America. Yes, it can happen here. But really thinking that tyranny is just or almost right around the corner can blind you to what actual tyrannies do.

That's why far too many liberals really think that Republicans are rabid fascists and why far too many conservatives really think that Democrats are raving communists. They're not. To someone who has seen real fascism or communism up close, the actual differences between the two major political parties in America are incredibly trivial, and the impact of politics on the average citizen is absolutely nothing. When you exaggerate the domestic danger of tyranny, you can wind up not knowing when you really are threatened by actual tyrannies or by people and political movements that really want to destroy your freedoms.

X,

I'm not sure we disagree on much, though your idea that the differences in parties are "trivial" strikes me as an overstatement.

Regardless, once some one has accepted my premise that "it can happen here," all I ask is that they maintain vigilance that it doesn't.

Too often, we get bogged down in dangerous notions of "party loyalty" or bought off by our high incomes and happy pills to notice that our rights are being sold down the river.

X - that's the crux of the matter. You have to show an id to rent a car, buy alcohol, rent a video, get into your workplace, etc. For the Dems to claim that showing an id to vote is onerous just doesn't fly.

X: Do you mean Bush is not Hitler, the greatest terrorist in the world? I believe everything the Democrats say.

Just make the SS card a photo id.

Bruno:

It's the old "stab in the back," eh?

Geography is of no moment to republican citizenry.

If they really didn't want to disenfranchise anybody, they'd have the election day on Saturday instead of the busiest day of the week (for us working folks).

OJ,

In my dotage and lack of intellect, I have absolutley no idea what you mean.

Please type more slowly.

Bruno:

It's called Zen Judd. Don't give up, now.

X:

When you exaggerate the domestic danger of tyranny, you can wind up not knowing when you really are threatened by actual tyrannies or by people and political movements that really want to destroy your freedoms.

Or in some cases not even caring. Freedom's swan song. Bless you.

I rented a dolly Saturday at the hardware store, and had to show a drivers license. The 18 y/o kid entered all the information in a computer. I don't feel threatened.

KRS:

"If they really didn't want to disenfranchise anybody, they'd have the election day on Saturday instead of the busiest day of the week (for us working folks)."

Um, that is why the polls in most places are open three hours before and three hours after peak working hours. Granted, those hours are often the most crowded, but I know that in Kalamazoo I have never had to wait as much as an hour to vote.

Also, there are people that Saturday voting WOULD disenfranchise (observant Jews and, I think, Seventh Day Adventists). I also suspect that Saturday voting would be more expensive, what with municipal workers in many cities getting time-and-a-half for weekend work. I think all I'm saying is: if the vote is truly important to you, you'll find a way to exercise it, and I doubt holding elections on Tuesdays keeps that many people away from the polls.

Can't get to the polls? Get an absentee ballot.

Can't get to the polls? Get an absentee ballot.

Here in King Country, you can get as many as you like, and vote 'em all, too. On the other hand, there's no guarantee that Elections will actually count them the first time. Might take two or three recounts for them to magically reappear...

Raoul, voter fraud is an entirely different issue than being unable to get to the polls on election day.

A national ID would solve that problem as well since voters would need to be registered before they were issued absentee ballots. Electing honest and competent election officials is also a good idea.

Our small corner of the world had a local issue on the ballot last March, one that developers and builders wanted passed, so they gave their workers the afternoon off and a couple of bucks to make it worth their while to actually get to the polls and vote.

Surprise -- their initiative passed. Who wudda thunk it.

I guess this is the wrong time to chime in about Benjamin Barber's concern, at a conference on
Hannah Arendt, about an " American Eichmann"
(presumably apprenticed at Gitmo, Bagram &
Abu Ghraib)

Anyone but a paranoid conspiracy type or a partisan democrat who expects to benefit from voter fraud would oppose this sensible and reasonable measure. Try buying a beer, a pack of cigarettes or renting a video without ID. You need a card to get a library book, cash a welfare check, etc. etc. So the Times thinks establishing your identity to vote is "onerous" and links it to every questionable voting restriction in recorded history? I have a check I'd like them to cash for me.

It's the libertarians who are really kooky on this--oh wait, you said that.

OJ:

Holy cow, I couldn't fracking believe this part:

The bill’s requirements are so onerous and inflexible that they could prevent millions of eligible voters without driver’s licenses — who are disproportionately poor, minority or elderly — from casting a ballot. [...]

Republican-dominated legislatures and election officials have adopted absurdly difficult registration rules.

Absurdly difficult? You think Mr. Cohen believes he'd have any difficulty following the directions and registering to vote?

His theory: We need to go easy on these folks and not burden them with restrictions. His subtext: They are too lazy and dumb to vote if we actually require anything.

Obvious questions...Who does the Times think is unable to get, or doesn't already have, a valid ID? Is anyone so disassociated from everyday life that they have no identification likely to vote? Approximately how many reality connected, informed, involved citizens who are likely to vote do not have or will not bother to obtain some form of ID? Are there people living in hidden caves in deep swamps who are being onerously denied their right to emerge every two years and trek to their local precinct voting site on voting day and vote for the Republican of their choice just because they have no way of establishing their identity? My God this is an outrage. Let's have a senate commitee to investigate. Ted Kennedy can chair. After all, there are a lot of cave/swamp no ID citizens in Hyannis.

It is obvious by all of the comments to this blog that of those responded, few if any, are minority. If you've never been discriminated against, you can't possible understand the impact that it can have on one's psyche. Why is it the the VOTING RIGHTS ACT has to be renewed every few years? Someone in congress gets the opportunity to ponder whether minorities should still have the PRIVILEDGE of voting, and theoretically have a voice in how this country is run. I wonder how much each of you would have to be paid in order to assume the roll of a black person in this country. When you consider that honestly, I would think that intellectually you would recognize that there is still racism, discrimination, and disenfranchisement. How would you feel if your Grandmother was turned away at the polls because she forgot her driver's license in her other purse? I am so afraid for the future of our country.

There's nothing more disingenuous than the insistence that only minorities have faced racial discrimination.

My grandmothers could both figure out how to get picture ID. Yours can't? Wny not help them?

Right.

Because everyone obviously owns a car or travels internationally, and therefore has an up-to-date and valid drivers license and passport.

Oh wait--a lot of people who live in the city don't have any government-issued photo ID, because they don't need one. They don't own a car, they don't travel internationally, whatever.

I don't own a car, so my driver's license isn't up to date. I've never traveled outside the country, so I've never had a passport. I'm lucky enough to go to a public university, so I have a government-issued student ID; but whoever lives in the apartment next to me probably doesn't.

Government-issued photo ID is not a necessity of everyday life. You can usually buy cigarettes and booze without getting carded. Many people don't travel by plane. You can get a video rental card or a library card with nothing but a utility bill. You can't see how millions of voting-eligible citizens might REASONABLY not have a government-issued photo ID?

They shouldn't have to go through the hassle to get one, if they don't have one. It can take weeks to receive it, and it costs money and time, sometimes more than poor people working two jobs can afford.

EVERYONE who is registered and eligible to vote should be able to vote, whether or not they have a driver's license or a passport.

Worried about voting fraud by cemetary dwellers? Well, okay, keep a list of SSNs of citizens who are deceased, and throw out any votes being cast by those SSNs. Even that might disenfranchise people who are incorrectly marked as being dead--and that happens more than you might wish to think--but at least it would disenfranchise fewer people than the government-issued photo ID requirement.

BTW, you don't think photo ID can be forged, if people are truly intent on committing voter fraud?

Oh, and nice article title, too. Yes, we should totally go back to the time of poll taxes; we've somehow forgotten the marvelous tradition of Jim Crow.

I thought conservatives were anti-tax?

While we're at it, you know... Women, the poor, minorities, and 18-20 year olds usually don't vote right. We should probably restrict voting to white male landowners 21 and over...

If you think the "hassle" of getting a photo ID is too much work it's not apparent why the Republic is served by having you get to vote. Voting is either worth it to you or not.

No, conservatives aren't anti-tax at all--they oppose high taxes. But only those who pay taxes should vote.

Remember the Founders motto: No representation without taxation.

>>If you think the "hassle" of getting a photo ID is too much work it's not apparent why the Republic is served by having you get to vote.

Because--photo ID-having or not--I am still a citizen of this country, and as such, according to the basic tenets of the Constitution, I have the INALIENABLE RIGHT to cast my vote.

Maybe I can't afford to get a passport? Maybe I can't take a driving test because I'm an epileptic and am not allowed behind the wheel of a car? Maybe my driver's license was taken away because of unpaid parking tickets? Maybe I just don't have time to get either of them because I work 80 hours a week and can't take out several hours in a single chunk to go through the paperwork?

Do you think that these things should bar me from voting?

>>But only those who pay taxes should vote.

Okay, what if they bring a pay stub to show that they've paid income, Social Security, and Medicare taxes? Would that be sufficient?

There's a big difference between requiring one to be a taxpayer in order to vote, and requiring the payment of poll taxes JUST for the purposes of being allowed to vote.

Not that we should restrict the vote to taxpayers anyway. It's perfectly possible for a citizen not to be a taxpayer, and every citizen, EVERY citizen, has the right to vote. Except if they're 17 or under, or a convicted felon (based on certain state laws), or ruled mentally incompetent... etc. Point being, a homeless person walking in off the street has the exact same amount of say in how this government is run as you do.

And y'know what? That's what makes America great.

Ever read the documents? Voting isn't one of the inalienable rights. It's a privilege.