Oh, we are into rhetorical questions now?

Why wouldn't these particular "religious" people go back to where they came from?

Why doesn't Jack Straw (stand in for secular) go to Jerusalem and p*ss on the wailing wall?

Why wouldn't he go to Mecca and open a t*tty bar?

Would Jack Straw go to Arabia and request the removal of veils?

Why should anyone respect the traditional customs, moral attitudes, manners of a different people when in the those peoples land?

The Islamic head/face-coverings are deeply sinister and anti-human. They are meant to create a sense of fear and mistrust. I do not like them in my society but if Mr. Judd thinks they are uplifting, let him start campaigning for more of them in America.

Mr. Judd has fallen into trap of believing that anything , anything at all is better than what he calls 'European atheism'. This is a stupid, dangerous and sloppy excuse for thinking.

So Muslim women wear veils so that Muslim men will distrust them? That's too idiotic to even take seriously.

Just because you're an Islamophobe doesn't mean they're trying to scare you. The problem is you.

Whatever the merits and demerits of the veil, it is alien to the culture of Britain. That culture owes very little to "European secularism," despite the late ascendance of that enervating heresy.

My question is whether the ascendance of secularism, alien ideology though it is, in Britain, is enough in Orrin's mind to justify the obliteration of her culture?

Europe has no culture. They obliterated it themselves. Islam will restore one.

Those funny-dressing Jews were alien too.

T:

Not according to Allah.

Mr. Judd, in Western societies, muslim women do not cover themselves for the benefit of their men - they do so to send a message to the Westerners about who they are, where they stand and what they represent.

Also, I am not an Islamophobe because the word 'phobia' refers to an irrational or baseless fear. I submit that there are very rational reasons for being afraid of Islam.

Which is why Allah ordered them to cover themselves in the first place, as you'd know if yuou made an weffort to inform yourself instead of stewing in terrors.

Yes, the reasons to fear Islam are entirely Rational--what could be rational about humility, chastity, modesty?--thus it's phobic.

Britain expelled the Jews in the Middle Ages. Had she no culture then?

Islam will bring a culture, indeed; one hostile to ours, and now armed with the technical capacity of Europe.

In the late Middle Ages and early Modern period, the Turks were the military superpower. Even the Spaniards avoid confrontation. The Turks achieved the dominance in part by a ruthless exploitation of the human resources of the decadent Greek Empire which they had conquered. The best Turkish troops were Christians taken as slaves; the administrators of the empire were often sons of Christians slaves; the sultans themselves were often sons of Christians taken into the harem; the Turkish navy was overseen by Italian renegades.

Orrin and others enjoy sneering at Europe's weakness. That weakness is spiritual only; given the force of Jihad, it will vanish, and we will have an adversary that exceeds our own material capacity.

Of course, since this problem will be one for our children, not us, we can safely ignore it and go on sneering.

Paul:

Bingo!

"Yes, the reasons to fear Islam are entirely Rational--what could be rational about humility, chastity, modesty?--thus it's phobic."

Come again?

Oh never mind, I am happy to accept the word Islamophobe as a flag of convenience, though anti-Muslim would be more accurate.

Like Keynes said, in the long run we're all dead? The quintessential creed of the materialist.

Exactly.

Yes, desiccated materialism is the creed that animates your sneers at Europe.

The Keynesians are going to be gone in the short term. Secular Rationalism didn't work.

We certainly agree on that, but I don't believe that's what we've been arguing about. We've been arguing about what will succeed Rationalism: I think it will be our civilzation's oldest adversary; you think it will this time be her friend.

That's all we're arguing about. Islamis Europe is preferable to secular Europe.

Christian Europe is preferable to both. "Secular Europe" is the blink of an eye in the history of Islam vs. Christian Europe. And for our children, talking of secular Europe will seem as strange as talking today about the universal class war -- antique and a bit comical.

The question of Islam will overtake the question of secularism before even our generation passes.

Of course it was--it's gone.