August 11, 2006
THE NATIONAL QUESTION:
When we question Israel, we question democracy itself (Daniel Hannan, 12/08/2006, Daily Telegraph)
It is striking how often Tory supporters of Israel turn out also to be Euro-sceptics, and Tory Arabists to be Europhiles. [...]Israel is more than a country; it is an archetype. The Jewish state is the supreme embodiment of the national principle: of the desire of every people to have their own state. For 2,000 years, Jews were scattered and stateless, but they never lost their aspiration for a national home - "next year in Jerusalem", as the traditional toast had it. That they have fulfilled that aspiration delights Euro-sceptics, but unsettles Euro-enthusiasts, who believe that national loyalties are arbitrary and anachronistic.
Then there is the question of whether Britain belongs with Europe or with the Anglosphere. Europhiles understandably want to align our stance with that of the EU, which refuses to list Hizbollah as a terrorist organisation, and sees a degree of equivalence between the paramilitaries and the Israeli Defence Force. The English-speaking democracies, by contrast, are not shy about taking sides. Lining up with George W. Bush and Tony Blair are the Canadian prime minister, Stephen Harper, who says that Israel's response is "measured" - despite the accidental killing of several Canadian UN peacekeepers - and his Australian counterpart, John Howard, who has told his Muslim leaders that nothing should stand in the way of disarming Hizbollah.
Why, though, do some Conservatives look at the globe through New World eyes, while others remain rooted in Europe? The answer is that the Conservative Party is an amalgam of two different traditions, whose opposition formed the basis of English party politics for more than 200 years after the Civil War. It was only the rise of the Left in the late 19th century that pushed the Whigs out of the Liberal Party and into an alliance with their Tory rivals - a link formally annealed in 1912.
The Euro-sceptic/Zionist Conservatives are heirs to the Roundheads. They believe in democracy, however messy its outcomes. They distrust elites and their opinions, and want power devolved to the lowest practicable level.
Which is why you'd think they'd understand the national aspirations of the Palestinians and Lebanese Shi'a better. Posted by Orrin Judd at August 11, 2006 11:28 PM
The Palestinians want their own country as much as the Irish Catholics in Ulster wanted one in the 80's.
If you stuff it down their throats they'll grudgingly take it, but they'd much rather attack the enemy.
And if it comes down to keeping a state or killing the enemy, they'll take the violence with a smile on their faces.
Posted by: Pepys at August 12, 2006 12:03 AMBingo! The trick is to shove a state down the leaderships' throats so they have to respond to the people.
Posted by: oj at August 12, 2006 12:12 AMThe people aren't anymore interested in having a country than the leadership is.
Though I agree that forcing one down their throats is the way to go.
Posted by: Pepys at August 12, 2006 12:28 AMPeople are interested in peace, prosperity and consensual government--in that order.
You're ignoring the Dark Side. You know better.
Posted by: ghostcat at August 12, 2006 12:52 AMUnder "normal" circumstances, your assertion makes sense. Very little about Gaza, the West Bank, and southern Lebanon is "normal" (in a post-democratic, social contract sort of way).
Until someone stands up and announces that Golda Meir's dictum ('there will be peace when they start loving their children more than they hate ours') will be followed, the desire for peace ain't going to bloom. It's too easy to keep making maps that don't show Israel at all.
Consensual government is a must, but that won't be a reality until one "group" has enough control to prevent any of the others from propagating terrorism (in any form). If they need to have a civil war, then they need to get it over with. Because they aren't going to have any prosperity without one. Israel and the US could certainly give it to them, but not while suicide bombers and rockets are flying. The EU and the other Arabs are only going to give them crumbs.
Posted by: jim hamlen at August 12, 2006 1:49 AMDo we hate our children because they're dying in Iraq?
Posted by: oj at August 12, 2006 7:34 AMghost:
You're confusing leaders and people--you know better.
Posted by: oj at August 12, 2006 7:38 AMWe don't hate theirs.
Posted by: jim hamlen at August 12, 2006 9:54 AMWe're killing them.
Posted by: oj at August 12, 2006 10:04 AMAnd having a lot of fun doing it, but then we just like to fight. America is proof that you do not have to hate someone to enjoy killing them. The Nazis, Palestinians, and Hezbollah are proof it doesn't hurt to.
Posted by: joe shropshire at August 12, 2006 11:13 AMPrecisely.
Posted by: oj at August 12, 2006 11:17 AMThe Palestinian people hate Israel and the Jews. They're not going to willingly give that up. Hate like that is intoxicating.
Now, how that hate came to exist is an interesting question. But the fact is, they cherish and nurture that hate more than they do their aspirations for a homeland.
Posted by: Pepys at August 12, 2006 2:04 PMOJ -
Would you send your children to northern Israel for an extended vacation?
If a Shi'a family in southern Lebanon or a Palestinian family in Gaza could send their children here, would they?
Case closed.
Posted by: jim hamlen at August 12, 2006 2:08 PMYou're safer in Northern Israel than in Miami.
Posted by: oj at August 12, 2006 2:15 PMThat's just silly. It's the same tripe we heard about why there'd never be a settlement in South Africa or Ireland. Give folks control of their own lives and they get past the hate in a hurry. even the ex-Confederates stopped hating Northerners by the 1980s.
Posted by: oj at August 12, 2006 2:17 PMMiami - perhaps. But Juno Beach? No way.
In South Africa and Ireland, there was a combination of outside pressure and internal realization (that things could not continue). The current "leadership" of Hezbollah ain't there yet. And certainly not while serving as a proxy army for Syria and Iran.
The link has to be cut. Damascus delenda est.
Me, I feel bad for people who have been so deracinated. But not for those who actually did it. Israel better kill Nasrallah tonight.
Posted by: jim hamlen at August 12, 2006 2:43 PMThe leaders don't matter, you can easily force reality on them by transferring power to them. Their constituents do the rest.
You're certainly right that Israel fought the wrong war -- and should have confronted syria instead -- which may be why yesterday was the first time W so much as spoke to Olmert.
"Give folks control of their own lives and they get past the hate in a hurry. even the ex-Confederates stopped hating Northerners by the 1980s." Freudian slip?
We agree OJ, imposition of statehood is the answer. It'll eventually defuse the hatred. Eventually.
Posted by: Pepys at August 12, 2006 3:26 PMA conservative's quickly is a liberal's eventually.
Posted by: oj at August 12, 2006 3:34 PMVery good, Mr. Judd. Very good.
Posted by: Pepys at August 12, 2006 6:37 PM