Except for the part that requires an intrusive regulatory state.

It's a hard sell. But what else are you gonna do?

Why do you feel compelled to do anything?

So they've stunk up the names like "freethinker", "liberal", "progressive" and "alternative" and wish to add "libertarian" to the list. The big question is whether or not the Losertarians will fight back or welcome this.

Markos apparently can ready the handwriting on the wall, or the type on the computer screen. He could brush off conservative taunts about his 0-for-19 record in elections, but once the big media types and those in the Democratic Party opposed to him started noting the netroots' failure, he's realized he's got to move his movement at least far enough to the right to win something, somewhere, in the upcoming elections.

The potential downside is a website isn't The New York Times, in that you need millions of dollars of investment in brick, mortar, machines and personnel to make it work. If one of Moulitsas supporters decides he's no longer a true believe, he or she can simply start their own website that continues down the path Kos has blazed, and then it will be up to the netrooters to decide where they want to point their web browsers.

They are not to be believed and not to be trusted.

I shall consider only the RKBA. The left has long been hostile to gun rights. They hold, rightly, I think, that privately owned weapons are antitithical to their Marxist agenda. The "gun culture," the traditionally white male "gun culture" is one on the instituions of civil society which stands in the way of their transformative schemes. All that "No justice, no peace!" line is trumped by guns in the hands of individuals. When the left threatens us with the violence of the rotting social scum, we say, "Bring it on!"

They have long since telegraphed their plan to place their anti-gun agenda in a stealth mode. Never forget that truth means less than nothing to those people.

Bill Quick has some thoughts on that, Lou.

Ah, so Kos wants libertarians to join up with DU types. That will bring his minions from 1% of the population to about 3%.

Joe: Quick didn't get it. Leftists aren't going pro-gun, it is nothing but a deception. Leftists are immured in the Marxist paradigm of wielding the power of the state in the Procrustian mission.

Private ownership of the means of force is anathema to a leftist. They support destabilizing criminality as a means of aggrandizing state power. The idea is that the bourgiousie will be cowed by crimiinals into allowing the aggrandizement of state power. Then, once the vanguard had seized state power, their exercise of dictatorship is greatly simplified. That is to say, the state already has all the guns, or at least knows where the guns are.

b: He actually has ideas, though.

Remember, in a kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.

They'll come knockin' sooner or later.

Lou: The Left you fear is dead. The people you describe aren't around anymore. All that's left of that are their tools wandering aimlessly over the landscape. Kos is trying to pick up the strings.

What ideas? Any of what you quoted could have been written by any libertarian blogger anytime in the past decade. Unless he throws in something along the lines of "America is Good. No Buts about it" he's still never going to matter, and if he does say that, he loses his minions.

He actually has ideas, though.

What b said: go ahead and point one out.

b: What Kos wrote had nothing to do with Libertarianism.

Except that Western masculinity is moralistic, which makes freedom possible. Femininity, on the other hand, is statist. It's not a circle he can square.

Ah, we see Pepys has been left unsupervised at the controls of the patented Orrin Judd Thread Obfusticator. Only trained professionals should be operating that gadget, son. Take your hand off the volume knob and back away, before somebody loses an eardrum.

He forgot he also wants a pony.

--we need roads and public transportation to give people freedom to travel wherever they might want. --

If the people are too poor, is he going to give them a car, insurance, maintenance and fuel, too?

--A Libertarian Dem believes that people should have the freedom to make a living without being unduly exploited by employers.--

But he says nothing about the State exploiting taxes.

Can't square what a demlib believes with what he wrote.

Joe: How about support the 2nd Amendment, lock up the criminals, give up judicial fiat and actually try to pass legislation?

I think it's remarkable. He wants to wean the Democrats off the judiciary and their culturally left/minority/feminist base.

I can't tell you how he'll handle traffic congestion in your town though.

OJ: Agreed. He can't get there from here.

He wants Democrats to say whatever it takes to get elected. That's not a new idea, Pep. You did read Mickey Kaus's post, didn't you?

Not that there's anything wrong with that! (Saying whatever it takes to get elected.)

Saying whatever it takes to get elected is what everyone does, Joe.

Like I said, I don't know how he's gonna fix that traffic problem you got.

No more talking about Kos, the guy's a tool.

We might let him try his hand at fixing the traffic lights, if he could get somebody elected.

Going from so strong crime and poverty prevention programs can create a safe environment for the pursuit of happiness to "locking up the criminals" is a long leap of faith.

It's pretty stock libertarianism. Libertarians never understand that morality is a prerequisite of the freedom they desire.

The buzzards, by the way, are circling:

www.realclearpolitics.com/printpage/?url=http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2006/07/is_the_daily_kos_about_to_impl.html

How the heck did I get tricked into defending Markos Moulitsas?

All I wanted to point out, ALL I WANTED TO POINT OUT!, was that the so called leader of the netroots was not an ideological radical and recognized the terrible position of the Democrats.

And then you all started being mean to me and twisting my words and making me feel bad about myself.

Jeesh.

Seriously, I'm hurting over here.

Pepys:

It's a threshhold mistake. You failed to recognize that libertarians are just as nutty as the Left and ultimately de facto allies of the Left. Without the cultural dominance of rather puritanical Judeo-Christian morality you end up needing statism.

Part of the problem is that you are taking Moulitsas at his word, that he wants to change the direction of his minions so as to win elections. I think a lot of people are skeptical because rarely has the Left demonstrated such a willingness in the past, and usually these are just cases where they repackage the same ol' class warfare and "will to power" in a stolen wrapper to throw off the gullible. What evidence is there that this talk (and all they has to offer is talk) is any different?

As for the Losertarians, I won't be surprised if they embrace this sort of thing. They have a naivete combined with narcissism that makes the swoon for anyone who pretends to take their programs seriously. For all their talk of "principles", those same principles seem to never get in the way of their selfish desires (or better yet, are designed to further them.) They are the perfect "useful idiots."

This whole thread is crazy with a capital Crazy. I agree with darn near everyone and yet somehow ended up with Kos in the corner with a Dunce cap on my head.

Clearly, his libertarian democrat thing is a long-term dead end for the very reasons OJ says, there is no there there and the State will fill the vacuum.

However, the point I was trying to make and what you all are missing is that it shows Kos is aware of the reasons for the fundamental disconnect between the Democrats, as currently constituted, and everyday Americans. It also reveals a willingness to accept and try to work within that reality. Of course, as you've all pointed out, he's a tool and the whole thing is doomed, but who else in those parts has moved as far as he has out of the wilderness? Not many. That is why the establishment is so afraid of him and why they are going to come knocking at his door. Well, maybe not him, but someone with his ideas who can recognize a winner.

If they go with ideas like this, the Democrats can at least drag the death rattle out for a few more election cycles.

Looking back, my response to David Cohen should have read "It's a hard sell, but what is Kos gonna do?" If I had written that, I don't think Joe Shropshire would have thought I was in favor of the Libertarian Democrat thing and I wouldn't have ended up in the corner with Kos.

So, I blame Joe.

Curse you, Joe Shropshire!!!!

It shows him unaware of why the Libertarian Party gets 1%. He's just trying on a different kind of crazy foil.

OJ:

It's a threshhold mistake. You failed to recognize that libertarians are just as nutty as the Left and ultimately de facto allies of the Left. Without the cultural dominance of rather puritanical Judeo-Christian morality you end up needing statism.

Well, but the libertarians don't believe that. For this reason they can often be usefully enlisted to fight against the left.

You wouldn't have gotten away that easily.

What a great site!
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