May 22, 2006


New star power for Hong Kong's democracy struggle (Robert Marquand, 5/23/06, The Christian Science Monitor)

Audrey Eu] comes out of a grass-roots protest movement that rose in 2003 to demand self-rule and rights. Eu articulated why it made good business sense for Hong Kong to govern itself; indeed, she linked the idea to the survival of Hong Kong's special identity.

Now, a central question is whether that spirit can be translated into an effective political party. The Civics want genuine democracy, not the watered-down version where Beijing controls the levers of power. That puts party leader Eu and her compatriots at uneasy odds with Beijing, despite their moderate nature.

There is no China.

Posted by Orrin Judd at May 22, 2006 8:23 PM

If there is no China, it can be created. Until the 19th century, there were few countries in the world whose inhabitants thought of themselves as a unified nation. Nationalisms were created by elites who wanted to destroy old tribal loyalties in favor of larger communities.

But of course it would be better for HK to be independent.

Posted by: Mörkö at May 22, 2006 8:42 PM

No, it can't that's why those nations are gone.

Posted by: oj at May 22, 2006 8:47 PM

"There is no China"

There is no America.Just a few abstract ideas and propositions and a large number tribes

The future belongs to the tribes.

Posted by: ghjk at May 22, 2006 9:28 PM

oj: What nations are gone? Empires are gone, because empires weren't nations but bunches of tribes kept together by force.

Posted by: Mörkö at May 22, 2006 9:46 PM

There is a China on every map I own, even the historical ones.

Posted by: Brandon at May 22, 2006 10:12 PM

No, there's a different one on every map you own, thus, no China.

Posted by: oj at May 22, 2006 10:25 PM


Britain, Germany, France, etc.

Posted by: oj at May 22, 2006 10:26 PM


Bingo! Nations are mere tribes and a country built on ideas isn't a nation.

Posted by: oj at May 22, 2006 10:28 PM

oj: What? Germany and France are successful examples of nations that were created by elites out of disparate tribes, and both very much exist today. The majority of the "French" didn't even speak French 150 years ago; Parisian elites made them speak it.

Great Britain's status as a nation on the other hand is questionable, because it is based on the supremacy of the English over the others.

Posted by: Mörkö at May 22, 2006 11:25 PM

Got a map of Africa from 100 years ago and all the colonies?

All that remains are dying rump states of France and Germany of what once were imagined empires. China will be similarly reduced.

Posted by: oj at May 23, 2006 12:01 AM

When some European nations had colonies, there was always a clear distinction between the mother country and the colonies. After decolonisation the inhabitants of the mother countries may have lost some self-esteem, but their basic identity has remained the same. I don't understand how this is relevant to the discussion.

Whether France and Germany will die remains to be seen.

Posted by: Mörkö at May 23, 2006 1:21 AM


Posted by: oj at May 23, 2006 7:16 AM


Don't you know by now that Orrin likes to take a long term view? For example, his lack of concern over global warming is based, not on the fact that the science is drivel, but on the assunption that after we all fry we will then freeze, so it all cancels itself out.

Posted by: Peter B at May 23, 2006 7:28 AM

Globes warm. Stars implode. China falls apart. Nothing speciates. Stuff happens except when it doesn't....

Posted by: oj at May 23, 2006 7:35 AM