January 28, 2006

FUNNY HOW THAT WORKS:

Mother of Congressman Tancredo dead at age 92 (AP, 1/28/06)

Adeline Tancredo, mother of U.S. Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo., has died at age 92 after suffering a stroke last year, the Rocky Mountain News reported Saturday.

The daughter of Italian-American immigrants...


The Congressman Tancredo's of their day were no more successful in keeping the undesirables out.

Posted by Orrin Judd at January 28, 2006 5:52 PM
Comments

We did sucesfully restrict immigration between 1924 and 1964. This 'immigration pause' allowed assimilation to take place. I realize many pro-immigrationists don't care if immigrants assimilate (George Bush, libertarians, leftists, etc.), the ones that do claim to care about assimilation should pay more heed to this part of our history.

Posted by: Carter at January 28, 2006 6:17 PM

When we likewise interned the Nip and practiced Jim Crow.... or, as nativists think of them, the good old days....

Posted by: oj at January 28, 2006 6:22 PM

If immigration was a good thing one would think it would be easy for you to come up with actual argument for it, instead of always resorting to calling people names (what's the "modern definition of a racist" again?).

So you would put no limits on immigration? If only people in the world making less than $1 a day moved to the US they would number in the billions. You would have no problem with that?

Posted by: Carter at January 28, 2006 7:19 PM

Immigration's like romance: potentially disastrous, and requiring a degree of control, but all in all a damn good thing.

Posted by: ghostcat at January 28, 2006 8:29 PM

Carter;

No, I would limit immigration.

Posted by: oj at January 28, 2006 8:46 PM

oj,
Isn't Tancredo's wall merely an attempt to do that, recognizing that the situation as is stands now amounts to unlimited immigration?

Posted by: Dennis at January 28, 2006 9:01 PM

Dennis:

A fence won't do anything and it's not a rational limit.

Immigration should be limited to montheists willing to work, bring their families, and become American citizens.

Posted by: oj at January 28, 2006 9:41 PM

Here's a wild guess.

The Tancredo ancestors entered the US legally.

Posted by: John J. Coupal at January 28, 2006 9:46 PM

oj,
Monotheists? I guess we're ruling out most Asians. Too bad, seems they were bringing quite a bit of intelligence, entrepreneurialism, and civil behavior.
And just moments ago you were implying that the pause in immigration Carter mentioned was part and parcel of our racist past.

Posted by: Dennis at January 28, 2006 10:05 PM

Dennis:

I don't necessarily agree with OJ's position, but he's talking about culture and not race -- i.e., behavior (which is changeable) versus race (which is not). Obviously, the two frequently intersect, but that's hardly OJ's fault.

Posted by: Matt Murphy at January 29, 2006 12:21 AM

So it's OK to set a limit on immigration, but any limit below the one you've selected is "racism". Do you have a single serious argument on this subject at all?

Posted by: Carter at January 29, 2006 12:57 AM

Not your best post, Orrin.

Posted by: Dusty at January 29, 2006 1:31 AM

Mean.

And we don't need more muslims at this point.

Posted by: Sandy P at January 29, 2006 1:36 AM

Dennis:

Yes, the Vietnamese Catholics who fled here have been a tremendous boon.

Posted by: oj at January 29, 2006 7:41 AM

Carter:

Bingo! Being a good American is about sharing our Founding ideals not about being a certain ethnicity. Rational immigration limits would filter out those who don't share the ideals and let everyone else in. Ideally we'd get rid of the natives who don't hold to those ideals, but we're too permissive.

Posted by: oj at January 29, 2006 7:43 AM

The last one into the lifeboat always wants to be the last one into the lifeboat.

Posted by: David Cohen at January 29, 2006 8:27 AM

"Immigration should be limited to montheists..."
Not all monotheists. We've still got to keep out those filthy Zoroastrians.
And what about all those Hindis who are proud upstanding members of the Anglosphere? Would you deport the H1Bees? Dreadful.

Posted by: Bryan at January 29, 2006 9:14 AM

Bryan:

Many Hindu espouse monotheism.

Posted by: oj at January 29, 2006 9:47 AM

On the occasion of the death of Cong. Tancredo's mother, apparently Orrin Judd can offer nothing better than this.

Orrin Judd supports rewarding millions of illegal aliens already in the United States with legal status. I assume that "oj" also supports rewarding millions of illegal aliens already in the United States with legal status. If I am incorrect about this "oj", please correct me.

Cong. Tancredo opposes rewarding millions of illegal aliens with legal status. I agree with him.

A wall built along the southern border of the United States will help to slow the flow of illegal aliens into this country. The number of border patrol agents should be greatly increased to also help in slowing the flow of illegal aliens into this country.

The lack of enforcement of this nation's borders during both the present Bush administration and the Clinton administration has been disgraceful.

Illegal aliens should be deported. At least three of the Middle Eastern terrorists that murdered nearly three thousdand (3,000) Americans on September 11, 2001, were illegal aliens by virtue of having overstayed their visas. They should have been deported before they had the chance to kill Americans.

Posted by: Tennessee Repubican at January 29, 2006 10:14 AM

Yes, the people we depend on to do the jobs we don't want to should be legalized. Congressman Tancredo, for instance, used illegal labor to redo his house.

Posted by: oj at January 29, 2006 10:38 AM

Rather than the lifeboat analogy, I think the protocol of the elders of cowbirds is a better analogy.

Posted by: h-man at January 29, 2006 10:58 AM

Cong. Tancredo did not use "illegal labor to redo his house". Below is a copy of an article that appeared in the Rocky Mountain News:

Drywall installer angrily challenges illegal-alien claim


By Heather Draper And M.E. Sprengelmeyer, Rocky Mountain News


September 20, 2002


A Denver businessman accused of using illegal workers to remodel U.S. Rep. Tom Tancredo's basement said Thursday he would welcome a visit from immigration officials.


J.J. Fukunaga, who has owned and operated Creative Drywall Designs of Denver for 19 years, said he was blindsided by the accusations and frustrated that he didn't know who was making them.


The Denver Post, citing unnamed sources, reported Thursday that illegal immigrants were used to finish Tancredo's basement and install a home theater system - charges that Fukunaga angrily denied.

Posted by: Tennessee Republican at January 29, 2006 11:44 AM

Not surprisingly, "oj" supports rewarding millions of illegal aliens with legal status.

Posted by: Tennessee Republican at January 29, 2006 11:45 AM

TN:

Yes, we're not going to send them back and they're integral parts of our society--we should legalize them.

Posted by: oj at January 29, 2006 12:07 PM

Recall the Congressman's quote, that it wasn't his job to make sure his employees were here legally. As long as the labor is cheap none of us care.

Posted by: oj at January 29, 2006 12:10 PM

H: I'm going to abstain for the moment from concluding that was a filty anti-semitic slur, but I would appreciate an explanation that doesn't involve Jews being parasites stealing the nation's wealth.

Posted by: David Cohen at January 29, 2006 12:28 PM

Mohammed Salameh was certainly an integral part of American society when he was an illegal alien and received amnesty pursuant to the 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act. He was working as a cab driver when he applied for amnesty. After receiving amnesty, he later later rented the truck used in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing.

Illegal alien Rafael Resendez-Ramirez, known as the railway killer, was certainly an integral part of American when he murdered eighteen people. He was a day laborer.

Illegal aliens should not be rewarded with amnesty. Illegal aliens should retrun to their home countries and apply to come this country legally.

Posted by: Tennessee Republican at January 29, 2006 12:35 PM

Tim McVeigh and Ted Bundy were natives--are we going to depopulate the nation to make it free of evil?

Posted by: oj at January 29, 2006 12:39 PM

Illegal aliens did not work on Cong. Tancredo's home. Cong. Tancredo hired a reputable drywall business that had been operating for nineteen years. There is absolutely no proof that anyone that worked on Cong. Tancredo's house was an illegal alien.

Posted by: Tennessee Republican at January 29, 2006 12:42 PM

TN:

The employees say they're illegal and the Congressman says he doesn't care. What more do you need?

Posted by: oj at January 29, 2006 12:45 PM

Mr. Judd:

I believe illegal aliens should be deported. You want illegal aliens to be rewarded with legal status. Simply because there are some native born American criminals does not mean that this nation should tolerate illegal alien criminals who have no right to be in this country.

Tennessee Republican

Posted by: Tennessee Repbulican at January 29, 2006 12:46 PM

Mr. Judd:

What are the names of the illegal aliens that allegedly worked on Cong. Tancredo's house. Since you believe Cong. Tancredo used illegal aliens to work on his house, please state the names of those illegal aliens. Is that too much to ask of a person who alleges that a United States congressman employed illegal aliens?

Tennessee Repbulican

Posted by: Tennessee Republican at January 29, 2006 12:52 PM

The first sentence of my last post should have ended with a question mark.

Posted by: Tennessee Republican at January 29, 2006 12:56 PM

They didn't give their names. Hardly surprising since he tried deporting a local honor student who was illegal. But the Post checked them out and never had to retract the story.

Posted by: oj at January 29, 2006 12:57 PM

By what right are natives in the country? The Indians didn't ask us to come. Just as you and Tancredo want Mexicans out, so did my grandparents want Tancredos kept out and so on and so forth. Anti-immigration is an enduringly asinine theme of little importance to the way the country actually functions.

Posted by: oj at January 29, 2006 1:01 PM

You claim "the Post checked them out and never had to retract the story". How did "the Post check them out"?

If your standard for truth in a news story is that is not retracted, then every news story in America that is not retracted should be believed.

Posted by: Tennessee Republican at January 29, 2006 1:16 PM

Mr. Judd:

I've not posted a word about "want[ing] Mexicans out". I want all illegal aliens deported, regardless of national origin.

Cong. Tancredo's ancestors came here legally. His ancestors have nothing in common with today's illegal aliens. Your comment about your grandparents "want[ing] Tancredos kept out" is interesting, though not particularly relevant to a discussion of illegal aliens. Apparently, your grandparents have had occasion to reveal to you that at some point they harbored hostility to the legal immigration of Italians.

You want illegal aliens that have purposefully violated this nation's immigration laws rewarded with legal status. I do not.

Tennessee Republican

Posted by: Tennessee Republicans at January 29, 2006 1:27 PM

TR: Why?

Posted by: David Cohen at January 29, 2006 1:44 PM

TR:

Yes, the press does a very good job on the facts and isn't hesitant to correc t them when wrong. They aren't wrong in this case

Posted by: oj at January 29, 2006 3:40 PM

Mr. Judd:

What potential 2008 presidential candidate would you like to see elected president in 2008?

Tennessee Republican

Posted by: Tennessee Republican at January 29, 2006 3:43 PM

David

Sorry. You did misunderstood. The cowbird analogy obviously relates to illegal immigrants displacing American citizens and to the detriment of our youth. The protocol etc.. is alluding to it being a conspiracy of the Mexican government.

However I don't see why and the heck you find it okay to direct insults at Tancredo for wanting to see that laws are not violated, than it would be to direct gratuitous insults a Mexican or Jews. After all, what other interpretation of your analogy could there be than that Tancredo is acting in a selfish and mean manner instead of what he views as just application of the present existing laws. To me a man who prevents others from entering the "lifeboat" is not acting in a moral manner, or are you saying I misinterpreted your analogy. Always possible and if I did then I'm sorry if I suggest you were too flippant.

Lifeboat analogy is inappropriate also because of the fact that any fair view of illegal Mexican immigration knows that there is no mass starvation in Mexico and hence not anything resembling life and death decisions.

Posted by: h-man at January 29, 2006 3:50 PM

TR:

Anyone but Tancredo. He's evil.

Posted by: oj at January 29, 2006 4:00 PM

The whole argument, although entertaining, is moot.

A comprehensive and forbidding U.S. Southern border wall, pace Orrin, would keep out a minimum of half of those who now cross the lightly secured border, perhaps as many as two-thirds.
Orrin is correct that some people would tunnel under the wall, or go around via the sea, or make other arrangements - but security is never about absolutely denying an end goal, it's simply about making a given goal more difficult to achieve.

The more effort that must be put forth to achieve a goal, the lower the number of people who will attempt it, and fewer still will succeed.
Locked cars can be stolen, but there's a reason that most stolen vehicles are unlocked, and that many have the ignition key in them.

Cubans are granted asylum upon simply reaching U.S. shores, but the hazards and difficulties of the trip keep all but a few thousand annually from attempting the journey.

How many Mexicans would brave defeating the Wall, in order to become illegal U.S. residents ?
Far fewer than the annual million or so who currently successfully dodge the Border Patrol and survive the Southwestern deserts.

However, that Wall, despite its potential effectiveness, will never be built. Nor will America spend what it would cost to have helicopters patrol every mile of the border every thirty minutes.

No, illegal immigrants really ought not be rewarded for successfully evading the authorities, and yes, America really ought to have a system of immigration that lets us overtly cherry-pick the world's skilled elite, but so what ?

American politics will neither let us fling open the door to skilled immigrants, nor seal the doors against the desperate and/or bold.

Mildly suppressed Mexican illegal immigration of low-skilled peoples is the best of NO worlds, but it's what we've got, and it's not going to go away.
Given that reality, maximizing its utility is the most constructive response.

Plus, American demographics will ensure that any movement in the immigration debate will be towards MORE immigration, not LESS, and that's likely to occur fairly soon, too - two decades, max.

Finally, being attractive to immigrants is the largest asset that America possesses, in the long run.
Immigrants are self-selecting go-getters, with enough moxie to leave all that they know, in search of success. While that passion isn't always expressed in constructive or productive ways once they're in America, two steps forward and one back is still a step forward for the U.S.

America would be best-served by building the Southern Wall, and then paying Mexico to accept us exporting to them all able-bodied 18 year old males who are unwilling to do two years in the military, or three in the Peace Corps or equivalent overseas service.
Then, anyone who makes it to the U.S. from Mexico, regardless of birthplace, would become an American citizen.

America should not aspire to emulate Sparta in entire, but a pinch more Sparta in the mix would be beneficial.

Posted by: Michael Herdegen [TypeKey Profile Page] at January 29, 2006 4:15 PM

We're not going to spend the money it would take to man and maintain a wall and as soon as there are labor shortages that start driving prices up we'll open the gates anyway. A wall will have almost no effect. But it will keep the nativists happy so build it.

Posted by: oj at January 29, 2006 4:20 PM

Mr. Judd:

What exactly did the Denver Post do when it "checked them [the illegal aliens] out"? The fact that the Denver Post story wasn't retracted proves nothing. The Denver Post allegedly used two anonymous illegal aliens as its source for the story. The only proof the Denver Post has is the word of two anonymous illegal aliens. Of course, someone who hates Tom Tancredo as much as you do is very willing to accept the allegations that allegedly came from two anonymous illegal aliens printed in an extremely liberal newspaper.

The Rocky Mountain News story was printed after the Denver Post story. The Rocky Mountain News story performed the amazign journalistic task of actually quoting real people with real names.

Posted by: Tennessee Republican at January 29, 2006 4:38 PM

Go to Google Earth and check out the topography of the land from Del Rio to the San Diego area. While a wall would help eliminate the easiest crossing locations, one running through the 500-foot canyons of the Big Bend in Texas or over the 7,000 foot mountains along the border in Arizona would be impratical to build, and difficult to patrol and maintain.

Then it would come down to a matter of the desire of those trying to enter the country against the desire of those inside to fund the cost of keeping those hard-to-reach areas as secure as needed. And that's before you get to the Esequiel Hernandez problem, for those who've forgotten we have had U.S. military personnel guarding the border within the past decade.

Posted by: John at January 29, 2006 4:44 PM

They quote guys who broke the law too. Of course they deny it.

Posted by: oj at January 29, 2006 4:45 PM

Mr. Judd:

It is interesting to know that you prefer both Sen. Hillary Clinton and Sen. John Kerry as president over Cong. Tom Tancredo. I'm sure that you would also prefer Sen. Ted Kennedy as president over Cong. Tom Tancredo.

Just like you, Senators Clinton, Kerry and Kennedy all support legalizing millions of illegal aliens. It is, therefore, not surprising that you would prefer Senators Clinton and Kerry over someone like Cong. Tancredo who has a lifetime rating of "98" from the American Conservative Union. Senator Kennedy has actually teamed up with Sen. John McCain to introduce legislation in the United States Senate that will reward millions of illegal aliens with amnesty.

Posted by: Tennessee Repbulican at January 29, 2006 5:03 PM

Mr. Judd:

Brett Olkowski was quoted in the Rocky Mountain News story. He says he was born in Buffalo, New York. Mr. Olkowski said that he, Jeff Wolff and Brad Brock-Purviance all worked on Cong. Tancredo's house and that "we're all definitely legal citizens". You stated that the Rocky Mountain News quoted "guys who borke the law". Are you saying that Mr. Olkowski broke the law?

Posted by: Tennessee Republican at January 29, 2006 5:11 PM

Of course, haven't you ever worked with illegals? You have to lie sometimes to protect them. Heck, if you go to Nuevo Laredo on your day off you may have to smuggle them back into the country.

Posted by: oj at January 29, 2006 5:15 PM

Yes, Hillary would be a better president than someone whose platform is nothing more than ethnic hatred.

Posted by: oj at January 29, 2006 5:17 PM

OJ

"Our homeland will be more secure when we can better account for those who enter our country," he said. "Instead of the current situation, in which millions of people are unknown ... law enforcement will face few problems with undocumented workers and will be better able to focus on the true threats to our nation from criminals and terrorists," he said.

"I oppose amnesty -- placing undocumented workers on the automatic path to citizenship," he said. "Granting amnesty encourages the violation of our laws and perpetuates illegal immigration. America's a welcoming country. But citizenship must not be the automatic reward for violating the laws of America."

Seems that in the above quotes Bush agrees with Tancredo. So I fail to see any distinction that would make Tancredo evil, while Bush is not. Unless you are saying that Bush is less honest than Tancredo, therefore less evil.

Posted by: h-man at January 29, 2006 5:29 PM

h:

Yes, we should admit them through a regular legal process rather than make them sneak in.

He is lying about the amnesty. Lying isn't evil.

Posted by: oj at January 29, 2006 5:40 PM

Good, that makes me of all people happier.

Posted by: h-man at January 29, 2006 6:29 PM

You stated "Of course, haven't you ever worked with illegals?". To my knowledge, I've never worked with anyone who was an illegal alien. Have you worked with illegal aliens?

The Denver Post published a story based upon the comments of two anonymous illegal aliens. You choose to believe that story. However, when the Ricky Mountain News publishes a story that actually quotes real people with real names, you don't believe it. Do you believe that Mr. Olkowski is lying about being a legal citizen? Do you believe the other employees he named are illegal aliens?

I'm still curious to know how the Denver Post "checked them [the illegal aliens] out" since you claim the Denver Post did that.

Posted by: Tennessee Republican at January 29, 2006 6:44 PM

Mr. Judd:

Since you claim Cong. Tancredo's "platform is nothing more ethnic hatred", please provide an example of ethnic hatred in Cong. Tancredo's "platform".

Posted by: Tennessee Republican at January 29, 2006 6:47 PM

Yes, I've worked and lived with illegal aliens and helped cover for them. Friends on another work crew helped smuggle coworkers over the border and back on their day off. We'd have done the same for the guys on our crew but were futher from the border. Illegals are an accepted part of life and the economy depends on them in the SouthWest and elsewhere.

I assume Mr. Olkowski is likewise lying to protect co-workers and friends who were illegal.


Tancredo wants to run for president on a platform of nothing more than whipping up anti-Hispanic hysteria.

Posted by: oj at January 29, 2006 7:49 PM

TN GOP:

Virtually every one of us has worked with illegals - and in my field, it was quite a surprise, given the background checks people have to go through (including fingerprints and credit checks). But it happens. If you are a doctor, how many orderlies are illegal at your hospital/clinic? If you are an architect, how many laborers on your projects are illegals? If you are an accountant, what about the firms you audit? If you are a lawyer, what about the firms you represent? If you are in retail, what about the distributors and packagers? And so on.

I don't go as far as OJ on Tom Tancredo being 'evil', but he is a one-note song, and a song that we have heard before, like in the 1930s. And his homilies won't fight demographics, as Michael noted.

Posted by: ratbert at January 29, 2006 9:07 PM

Mr Judd:

I'm still waiting to hear what the Denver Post did when it "checked them [the illegal aliens] out." On the one hand, you accept as true a news story that doesn't quote one person and relies on allegations from two anonymous illegal aliens. On the other hand, you call an American citizen, Brett Olkowski, a liar for stating that he and two other persons, both of whom he named, working on Cong. Tancredo's house were legal citizens.

As I expected, you have nothing but your opinion to support your assertion that Cong. Tancredo's "platform is nothing more than ethnic hatred". When you can actually produce a quote from his "platform" that supports your assertion, please post it.

Hillary Clinton might be an appropriate candidate for you to support since your views and her views are so close with regard to rewarding millions of illegal aliens with amnesty.

Posted by: Tennessee Republican at January 29, 2006 11:12 PM

TN:

Yes, I trust the Post more than one guy whose jovb is on the line.

All Tancredo is running on--all he ever talks about--is stopping the flood of immigrants. He's selling hate. Period. it's a platform that will always get a few folks, but you can't build a party or a decent country around it.

Hillary would be a better president than Tancredo as Bill was a better one than Pat Buchanan would have been.

Posted by: oj at January 29, 2006 11:20 PM

Mr. Judd:

The Rocky Mountain News reported that both J.J. Fukunaga and Brett Olkowski denied that illegal aliens worked on Cong. Tancredo's house. Mr. Olkowski gave the names of two other Americans that worked with him on Cong. Tancredo's house.

The Denver Post relied upon alleged statements from two anonymous illegal aliens as the sole basis for its story. As I recall, the Denver Post story did not indicate that any Post employee had spoken with any of the four Americans named in the Rocky Mountain News story.

You choose to believe the alleged statements of two anonymous illegal aliens and call an American who named two other Americans who worked on the job a liar. It doesn't surprise me that you believe what two anonymous illegal aliens allegedly said.

I'm still looking forward to you providing details of what the Denver Post did to "check them [the illegal aliens] out" before publishing the story.

You have yet to provide a single quote from Cong. Tancredo's "platform" to support your contention that his "platform is nothing more than ethnic hatred".

It is interesting that you believe Hillary Clinton would make a better president than Tom Tancredo, but are afraid to answer a simple question asking what potential 2008 presidential candidate would you like to see elected president in 2008.

Posted by: Tennessee Republican at February 1, 2006 12:59 AM

TN:

Yes, I believe the Post rather than the employer and merely not that the Congresssman not only didn't deny it but said it's none of his business if he hired illegals. What's good for the goose....


His platform is anti-immigration. Period. It is inherent ethnic hatred, as it has always been in American history. We tried to keep his fish-eating ancestors out and now he wants to keep the beaners out. Their grandkids will find another group they want to ban. It's a perennial issue but not a serious one.

Posted by: oj at February 1, 2006 7:33 AM
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