David Warren wasn't expecting much from her: http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/index.php?artID=497.

pj:

And he is right. She is one of the trendy, beautiful people nobody ever heard of whose sense of the position she was handed out of the blue is still untested and who has already proven herself gaffe-prone. But doesn't that make her point here even more more persuasive?

To claim that mass immigration will "save us" from multiculturalism is positively Orwellian.

Apparently the mere assertion that something seems counterintuitive becomes a rock solid argument when you reference a literary work.

carter:

Why? It's the immigrants themselves who are saying it is a crock. Just as is it is the (embarassed) observant Muslims and Jews that tell us to stop being so stupid about public celebrations of Christmas. What is Orwellian is the assumption that progressive, academic/ intellectual "natives" know what they want and what is good for them.

One immigrant is saying it. Even if some immigrants don't want multiculturalism, mass immigration drives the demand for it and means a bigger clientele and greater power for the multiculturalist lobby.

Timothy I'm not claiming anything is counterintuitive, I think it's obvious that more immigrants means more multiculturalism - up to a point. Once immigrants gain decisive majorities they will dispense with multiculturalism in
favor of their own cultures.

Carter:

Are you suggesting that we of white, European descent can be counted on to exercise tolerance, fair play and equality of opportunity while everyone else is into power for the tribe?

Peter
Many months ago you had a post about Sudanese immigrants working for Dell Corp, who after coming from half way around the world, quickly picked up on the prevalent zeigeist of multiculturalism and demanded that work rules accomodate their own pecular Sudanese interpretation of Muslim prayer rituals. You were flabbergasted that there would be resistance to such requests. So now you are saying that immigrants, as a group, oppose multiculturalism and it is they who will "save us from ourselves".

Regarding your last question to Carter, I think "exercising tolerance, fair play and equality of opportunity" are in fact part of "white, European" culture and thus will likely be practiced by such a group more than other immigrant groups. So yes, (most) everyone else is into the power for the tribe, UNLESS they accept the prevalent strains of white, European attitudes towards tolerance..etc. (Sub-saharan African, Asian, Amerindian, Muslim, no those cultures are less likely)

h-man:

If you had been around when freedom of religion was put in the Bill of Rights, would you have accused them of "picking up on the prevalent zeitgeist of multiculturalism"? You seem to think the word means any public manifestation of cultures other than your own.

If you honestly believe that white European culture has an intrinsic historical edge on tolerance, I can only recommend a few hundred hours in a library.

Well yes, I do believe white European culture does have "intrinsic edge on tolerance". (no reason for me to be dishonest about it)

I imagine that you think so also. (but I wouldn't imply dishonesty on your part if you didn't hold that view) Otherwise immigration would be to the Sudan rather than to Europe and America. I don't do libraries but, yes I am familiar with instances of where people fall short of their ideals.

Your reference on bill of rights and specifically freedom of religion as being effort to accomodate differing viewpoints, relates only to the coercive institution of government. I would accuse them of attempting to be tolerant. (and applaud them for it)

Dell isn't the govt. and the Sudanese were the one's using the coercive power of the government to "force" acceptance of their views. Of course I would not expect Sudanese to be tolerant since they are not of a European mindset, you are the one who is arguing that.

Ms Jean, in your post "My dream is that we reflect much more deeply on citizenship, on belonging, which is not a negation of where we come from or our heritage"

She's wrong. It is a negation.. of her heritage. Accidently the rest of what she said is basically correct.

h-man:

You have forgotten that the Somalis made it very clear they would make up the time or do what else was necessary to ensure it wasn't some paid benefit for them alone. Are you offended when observant Jews ask to be let out early on Friday and stay late Monday to make it up?

So you are saying you applaud constitutional restrictions that force the government to be tolerant, but you don't think we should encourage private institutions and individuals to be? No one was arguing that Dell should be forced by law.

And, h-man, it was a well-defined, relatively non-disruptive baseline religious requirement of a major religion that everyone knows about. There are a very limited number of those. Your use of "culture" rather than "religious freedom" makes it sound like it was the equivalent of demanding cous cous in the company cafeteria.

We certainly have been more tolerant and less tribal. But I wouldn't say this is something that can be counted on. Once mass immigration reduces the white majority past a certain point one of the consequences is likely to be overt and assertive white tribalsim.

Peter
Yes thanks, for correcting me about the Somalis as opposed to Sudanese. They all seem the same to me.

Okay, Okay, you're correct about the fact that the Somalis had not reached the stage of using the govt. to restrict the actions of Dell. But they would have gotten there if Dell hadn't caved. Regardless the point is that we as a nation are firmly in the grip to one or the other version of "multiculturalism" in which the predominate white European culture has to take the back seat to the loudest ethnic group, and then rearrange previously accepted norms to accomodate that ethnic group.

This will get worse not better as we have abandoned control of our borders. There is great difficulty in "forcing" (yes, force by societal pressure) assimilation into an American Culture.

bye i've said enough on this thread