If it doesn't, it's moral due diligence before we kill them all.

"Democracy will not convert the current crop of extremist jihadis to peaceful change"

Perhaps not doing things which encourage their recruitment and cause would help. Perhaps not funding them, training them, and helping to create them in the first place would help. Perhaps listening to the left, and by left I don't mean one of the two sides of the U.S.'s one party system, the business party, but the folks who easily recognize, and usually do years in advance, that believing there to be much of a difference between the two parties is nonsense. You know, like the folks who were anti-Saddam when the right was whole-heartedly supporting him? Remember? The same folks which were called "anti-American" and other such absurd names by those who flushed their past support of Saddam down the memory hole, only to have seen the light, WAY LATE, as usual, in the game? Here, perhaps I'll refresh your memory with a quote from the right which sums it all up. It comes from none other than that well-funded rightwing extremist Rush:

"And now the liberals want to stop President Reagan from selling chemical warfare agents and military equipment to Saddam Hussein, and why? Because Saddam 'allegedly' gassed a few Kurds in his own country. Mark my words. All of this talk of Saddam Hussein being a 'war criminal' or 'committing crimes against humanity' is the same old thing. LIBERAL HATE SPEECH! And speaking of poison gas . . . I SAY WE ROUND UP ALL THE DRUG ADDICTS AND GAS THEM." - Rush (oxycontin) Limbaugh, Nov. 3, 1988

So, while it's fine to desire democracy, it's probably a good idea not to do everything in one's power to build up the anti-democratic forces in the first place.KB

"and too rapid a transition may destabilize governments and enhance the extremists' opportunities to wreak havoc."

Well, as this was the prediction of everyone on the planet, including all the intelligence agencies, etc...it shouldn't be in the least surprising.KB

"But over time, the slow, steady progress of democratization and freedom provides a sense of hope for the moderates."

Yes, and maybe they'll be transformed into democracies like all of those other successful examples in Central America, Guatamala, El Salvador, etc....KB

"Let's put it this way, if it all were to end up going to heck in a handcart, no one would be able to say W didn't give it our best shot."

Isn't this what every imperialist venture says? Oh, but OUR imperialism is good. But that's what what they say as well.KB

"And if, instead, it continues to work? Well, then he's a world historical figure."

There are many historical figures who one would probably be better off not being associated with; Hitler, Stalin, etc....KB

I dunno. Immediately noticed that citation of Limbaugh from back when Reagan was President (and when he weighted about 100lbs more, could hear, had one less failed marriage, and as you point you so graciously, didn't have a problem with pain killers) and it pursuaded me. Pursuaded me to not bother reading the rest of the posting, even if that quote is both true and accurate. (How many out of context hours are contained in that final ellipsis, anyhow?)

Try again when you are serious about making your points.

Orrin finally hedges his bets with faint praise. Sensible.

Raoul and Rick:
What are you guys talking about? I saw no refernece to Limbaugh in Orrin's post, nor any hedging of bets with faint praise.

Posted by: jd watson at September 22, 2005 5:22 AM

Rick:

Finally? I've said all along that if they don't choose to be democrats we can just make the whole place a pool of green glass. Killing them all is easy. But that's obviously not the first option we should take.

http://www.brothersjudd.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/reviews.detail/book_id/979

Of course, I'm old enbough to remember when your side thought Slavs, Catholics, Gooks, coloreds, etc, unsuited to democracy, so I take your assumption that Arabs are ill-suited with a large grain of salt.

KB,
As I suspected, your Rush quote
is a lie and actually comes from the leftist Boondocks comic strip. I don't consider that a good source political discourse.

Well, my link doesn't work, so try cut and paste:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/quotes/limbaugh2.asp

kb:

Indeed, our imperialism is good, as the examples of Europe and Latin America demonstrated in the past and the Middle Eastern elections are demonstrating now. Of course, British imperialism turned out rather well too, as we demonstrate ourselves.

I think Coke, Pepsi and jeans are good. Gave lots of people all over the world jobs.

I was taken aback by that Limbaugh quote, foolishly assuming it was legit. Thanks Patrick for the correction.

Darryl,
It only shows how easy it was to believe the lies of the left before the internet. I doubt kb much cares that he was mislead. Fake but true is their usual opinion when confronted with facts.

JD Waston: I was talking about KB's comments preceeding mine. With a comment that long, I usually scan down to the end, checking the poster, so as to not waste my time with the rantings of the more obvious trolls. I didn't know whether or not that quotation was a lie or taken out of context, but Occam's Razor said to assume it was bogus, and it turns out I was right to do so. (That it was supposedly from last Thursday in which people could still talk legitimately about an upcoming Dukakis Administration was another clue.)

There's no point in rebutting such a posting. A person who thinks nothing of immediately lying isn't interested in a discussion, but in getting a reaction. I decided to give him one, in the hopes that it wasn't what he wanted. I know one shouldn't encourage the trolls, because their behavior is ultimately self-defeating. But I also believe they should be encouraged to engage in behavior in the wider world, which will result in a backlash in things that really matter, like elections.

Ahhh Raoul, yes, you obviously "dunno". And by the usual display of scholarship displayed by many on the "right", you proved my point all too well. Perhaps reading everything instead of just projecting your own inaccurate preconceptions and mis-perceptions would be a good idea. Why would referring to anything from the Reagan days, Rush, or any other time, person, or place, not be of significance, especially as it is directly related to the topic, and most things have hardly changed at all? Anyway, perhaps you should try reading for a change.KB

And, Patrick, of course you would suspect this quote as a lie, though I'm not sure why. What did you do, write Rush and ask him? And lie or not, it was, and still is, for the most part the position of many of those on the right. You know it, and I know it.

And, OJ, fitting initials by the way, of course "our imperialism is good". As I said, the imperialists have always asserted this. It's just great to see it so blatently condined and made apologetics for. And some people actually believe this, too. You can read their books all over the place starting hundreds of years ago. Internalizing these depraved positions also helps one perceive events in certain ways, and, in turn, create apologetics for their own crimes. However, the REALLY indoctrinated don't even need to create apologetics, not consciously anyway, because they don't even believe they've done anything wrong. Look at Raoul and Patrick.

This leads to the other typical projection of the right comment "Fake but true is their usual opinion when confronted with facts." The only folks I know who do this are the right. And, if, in fact, Rush did not say this, I stand corrected. However, to try and deny that this exact idea hasn't been assumed by many, if not most of the right, would be an overt lie, slightly worse than a potential mis-quote I'd say.

And did I actually read that oj said that our imperialism was good in Latrin America? I can only assume that was an attempt, and a weak one at that, at trying to make apologetics in advance for crimes which he must know, as anyone with over a third grade education knows, the U.S. has participated in. This goes back WAY far into history too. Sorry Raoul. Not just a sound bite for your conventional thought to cling to, briefly. For those who would like to read or hear about just how this imperialism has worked out in Latin America, and other third world countries, please go to:

John Stockwell, former CIA Station Chief in Angola in 1976, working for then Director of the CIA, George Bush. He spent 13 years in the agency. He gives a short history of CIA covert operations. He is a very compelling speaker and the highest level CIA officer to testify to the Congress about his actions. He estimates that over 6 million people have died in CIA covert actions, and this was in the late 1980's.

William Blum(former C.I.A)
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Foreign_Policy/US_ForeignPolicy.html

Ralph Mcgehee(C.I.A. 25 years)
http://www.parascope.com/articles/1197/mcgehee.htm
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA/Deadly_Deceits.html

Of course there are many more inconvenient facts by other real patriots. If interested I can refer them, though I'd assume that anyone even having the nerve to call themselves American would already be familiar with all of their works. Or, Patrick, I guess these could all be lies as well. I'm sure these are just scorned and disgruntled agents trying to get back at their boss. ;)

And, if any of you consider yourselves to be "anti-Chomskyites" please feel free to comment on him as much as possible, as I write satirical dialogues about your breed. I'm always looking for some good material. All you need to do is speak, I'll do the rest.

Ahhh Raoul, yes, you obviously "dunno". And by the usual display of scholarship displayed by many on the "right", you proved my point all too well. Perhaps reading everything instead of just projecting your own inaccurate preconceptions and mis-perceptions would be a good idea. Why would referring to anything from the Reagan days, Rush, or any other time, person, or place, not be of significance, especially as it is directly related to the topic, and most things have hardly changed at all? Anyway, perhaps you should try reading for a change.KB

And, Patrick, of course you would suspect this quote as a lie, though I'm not sure why. What did you do, write Rush and ask him? And lie or not, it was, and still is, for the most part the position of many of those on the right. You know it, and I know it.

And, OJ, fitting initials by the way, of course "our imperialism is good". As I said, the imperialists have always asserted this. It's just great to see it so blatently condined and made apologetics for. And some people actually believe this, too. You can read their books all over the place starting hundreds of years ago. Internalizing these depraved positions also helps one perceive events in certain ways, and, in turn, create apologetics for their own crimes. However, the REALLY indoctrinated don't even need to create apologetics, not consciously anyway, because they don't even believe they've done anything wrong. Look at Raoul and Patrick.

This leads to the other typical projection of the right comment "Fake but true is their usual opinion when confronted with facts." The only folks I know who do this are the right. And, if, in fact, Rush did not say this, I stand corrected. However, to try and deny that this exact idea hasn't been assumed by many, if not most of the right, would be an overt lie, slightly worse than a potential mis-quote I'd say.

And did I actually read that oj said that our imperialism was good in Latrin America? I can only assume that was an attempt, and a weak one at that, at trying to make apologetics in advance for crimes which he must know, as anyone with over a third grade education knows, the U.S. has participated in. This goes back WAY far into history too. Sorry Raoul. Not just a sound bite for your conventional thought to cling to, briefly. For those who would like to read or hear about just how this imperialism has worked out in Latin America, and other third world countries, please go to:

John Stockwell, former CIA Station Chief in Angola in 1976, working for then Director of the CIA, George Bush. He spent 13 years in the agency. He gives a short history of CIA covert operations. He is a very compelling speaker and the highest level CIA officer to testify to the Congress about his actions. He estimates that over 6 million people have died in CIA covert actions, and this was in the late 1980's.

William Blum(former C.I.A)
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Foreign_Policy/US_ForeignPolicy.html

Ralph Mcgehee(C.I.A. 25 years)
http://www.parascope.com/articles/1197/mcgehee.htm
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA/Deadly_Deceits.html

Of course there are many more inconvenient facts by other real patriots. If interested I can refer them, though I'd assume that anyone even having the nerve to call themselves American would already be familiar with all of their works. Or, Patrick, I guess these could all be lies as well. I'm sure these are just scorned and disgruntled agents trying to get back at their boss. ;)

And, if any of you consider yourselves to be "anti-Chomskyites" please feel free to comment on him as much as possible, as I write satirical dialogues about your breed. I'm always looking for some good material. All you need to do is speak, I'll do the rest.

Ahhh Raoul, yes, you obviously "dunno". And by the usual display of
scholarship displayed by many on the "right", you proved my point all too well.
Perhaps reading everything instead of just projecting your own inaccurate
preconceptions and mis-perceptions would be a good idea. Why would referring
to anything from the Reagan days, Rush, or any other time, person, or place,
not be of significance, especially as it is directly related to the topic,
and most things have hardly changed at all? Anyway, perhaps you should try
reading for a change.KB

And, Patrick, of course you would suspect this quote as a lie, though I'm
not sure why. What did you do, write Rush and ask him? And lie or not, it
was, and still is, for the most part the position of many of those on the
right. You know it, and I know it.

And, OJ, fitting initials by the way, of course "our imperialism is good".
As I said, the imperialists have always asserted this. It's just great to
see it so blatently condined and made apologetics for. And some people
actually believe this, too. You can read their books all over the place starting
hundreds of years ago. Internalizing these depraved positions also helps
one perceive events in certain ways, and, in turn, create apologetics for
their own crimes. However, the REALLY indoctrinated don't even need to create
apologetics, not consciously anyway, because they don't even believe
they've done anything wrong. Look at Raoul and Patrick.

This leads to the other typical projection of the right comment "Fake but
true is their usual opinion when confronted with facts." The only folks I
know who do this are the right. And, if, in fact, Rush did not say this, I
stand corrected. However, to try and deny that this exact idea hasn't been
assumed by many, if not most of the right, would be an overt lie, slightly
worse than a potential mis-quote I'd say.

And did I actually read that oj said that our imperialism was good in
Latrin America? I can only assume that was an attempt, and a weak one at that,
at trying to make apologetics in advance for crimes which he must know, as
anyone with over a third grade education knows, the U.S. has participated
in. This goes back WAY far into history too. Sorry Raoul. Not just a sound
bite for your conventional thought to cling to, briefly. For those who would
like to read or hear about just how this imperialism has worked out in
Latin America, and other third world countries, please go to:

John Stockwell, former CIA Station Chief in Angola in 1976, working for
then Director of the CIA, George Bush. He spent 13 years in the agency. He
gives a short history of CIA covert operations. He is a very compelling
speaker and the highest level CIA officer to testify to the Congress about his
actions. He estimates that over 6 million people have died in CIA covert
actions, and this was in the late 1980's.

William Blum(former C.I.A)
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Foreign_Policy/US_ForeignPolicy.html

Ralph Mcgehee(C.I.A. 25 years)
http://www.parascope.com/articles/1197/mcgehee.htm
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA/Deadly_Deceits.html

Of course there are many more inconvenient facts by other real patriots. If
interested I can refer them, though I'd assume that anyone even having the
nerve to call themselves American would already be familiar with all of
their works. Or, Patrick, I guess these could all be lies as well. I'm sure
these are just scorned and disgruntled agents trying to get back at their
boss. ;)

And, if any of you consider yourselves to be "anti-Chomskyites" please feel
free to comment on him as much as possible, as I write satirical dialogues
about your breed. I'm always looking for some good material. All you need
to do is speak, I'll do the rest.

"You know, like the folks who were anti-Saddam when the right was whole-heartedly supporting him?"

The left are now whole heartedly supporting Saddam?

The right has never whole heartedly supported Saddam.