August 29, 2005

NEITHER/NOR:

Who designed the Designer? (Marcelo Gleiser, August 29, 2005, Boston Globe)

A hypothesis is scientific if it can be empirically validated. One must ''see to believe" -- exactly the opposite of the ''believe to see" which forms the premise of many religious systems. It's much easier to see miracles everywhere if you believe in them. The scientific ''see to believe" is supported by data acquired in the lab or through observations. If the hypothesis is vindicated, the scientific community, after much debate, accepts it. This doesn't mean it will remain part of the established ''truth." New theories sprout through the cracks of old ones. Science needs crisis to evolve. It needs mysteries. It is always incomplete. Behind our ignorance there is just the science we haven't yet developed. [....]

The ID hypothesis, that we, or a few key steps in the evolution of life, are products of purposeful design is not scientific. There is no way to test it. It cannot be confirmed experimentally.


The best part of the whole kerfuffle is that in order to keep ID out of the classroom they make the case for banning Darwinism as well, Darwin's Influence on Modern Thought (Ernst Mayr, September 23, 1999, Lecture on winning the Crafoord Prize from the Royal Swedish Academy of Science)
Evolutionary biology, in contrast with physics and chemistry, is a historical science - the evolutionist attempts to explain events and processes that have already taken place. Laws and experiments are inappropriate techniques for the explication of such events and processes. Instead one constructs a historical narrative, consisting of a tentative reconstruction of the particular scenario that led to the events one is trying to explain.

As neither is scientific neither belongs in a science class.

Posted by Orrin Judd at August 29, 2005 6:59 AM
Comments

Microevolution is scientific, it has been observed, and is almost undeniably true.
Macroevolution takes place over millions of years. It would be impossible to observe, but threre is lots of evidence, in relating the genomes of organisms, that is currently in the works.
Im surpised you didnt reference anything else from that article by Mayr. You made it sound as if he didnt support evolution.

Posted by: Fred at August 29, 2005 12:17 PM

Fred:

He supported it as a faith, or philosophy as he called it, not a science. Microevolution is insignificant to the theory and is only brought up by folks who acknowledge--even if only to themselves--that there's no scientific support for Darwinian macroevolution.

Posted by: oj at August 29, 2005 12:48 PM

oj - Microevolution supports natural selection, not ID

Posted by: Fred at August 29, 2005 2:15 PM

Fred:

The resort to microevolution is an admission that actual evolution doesn't proceed by Natural Selection. Sort of the way y'all had to reinvent the notion of species so you could pretend something had speciated..

Posted by: oj at August 29, 2005 3:20 PM

Okay, okay. Evolution isn't science; it is natural history.

Of course, discussions of how God intelligently designed human history also don't belong in a secular classroom.

Posted by: Joseph Hertzlinger at August 29, 2005 3:21 PM

Joseph:

Mayr is more careful than that. He calls it a historical narrative, not history. The Bible too is a historical narrative.

Posted by: oj at August 29, 2005 3:27 PM

OJ - You really dont know what you're talking about when it comes to science;
Pretend something had speciated?
Like I said, Microevolution proves natural selection. Evolution of species is evident from the fossil record. Intelligent design makes no scientific sense.
If you are going to pretend to know what you're talking about, at least do it on the book reviews, where nobody really pays attention to the fact that you haven't read most of the books.
If you can explain to me the basis (and its very simple) behind Darwin's theory, I would be really surprized.
Cmon, you might learn something if you look it up really quick and retype what you find in this little textbox. You might even learn something.
Of course, I'm gonna guess that you just send me some kind of link to an obviously biased source of information.
And you migh want to reread Mayr's article.

Posted by: Fred at August 29, 2005 4:57 PM

Fred:

Yes, no one is arguing that evolution hasn't occurred. The belief that Natural Selection caused it is a mere superstition, as is the belief that intelligent beings or God did. Microevolution isn't evolution--it's breeding.

Posted by: oj at August 29, 2005 5:06 PM

Not even the Darwinists think that natural selection causes evolution.

Posted by: David Cohen at August 29, 2005 5:38 PM

"Yes, no one is arguing that evolution hasn't occurred."

Except, of course, for Creationists.

"The belief that Natural Selection caused it is a mere superstition, as is the belief that intelligent beings or God did."

Natural selection can be observed and/or demonstrated, and no barrier (theoretical or otherwise) has ever been proposed as to why a thousand small changes should not result in a big change. All you keep saying is that it doesn't work, without backing it up in any way. If you're happy enough to be willfully obtuse, that may well work for you, but it makes it clear to others that you've already conceded the argument but are not big enough to admit it.

Posted by: creeper at September 1, 2005 3:20 PM

Young Earth Creationists believe in the literal nature of Genesis, which is an evolutionary account.

Posted by: oj at September 1, 2005 4:13 PM

Genesis taken literally is not an evolutionary account. We've been over this in great detail. It can be read as a metaphor for evolution (e.g. Day-Age Creationism), but taken literally, it is not evolutionary. Dust to man is not evolution, but a wave of the magic wand.

Posted by: creeper at September 2, 2005 12:44 AM

It was dust and became man-that's an evolution.

Posted by: oj at September 2, 2005 7:01 AM

We've been over this extensively, Orrin. Evolution by definition is a gradual process. Dust to main ain't.

Posted by: creeper at September 2, 2005 7:40 AM

Even in Genesis it took God seven days and the stages are rather gradual.

Posted by: oj at September 2, 2005 8:30 AM

You must be joking, Orrin. From no plants to all plants is "rather gradual"? From no animals to all animals is "rather gradual"?

From dust to man is not gradual, Orrin.

Posted by: creeper at September 2, 2005 9:57 AM

We all believe Man was crafted from dust, whether arising from primordial muck or breathed into life by God. Everyone believes in evolution--only the mechanism is in dispute.

Posted by: oj at September 2, 2005 10:02 AM

And the mechanism of God creating man from dust in one fell swoop is not evolution.

It's possible to read Genesis as a metaphor for evolution; taken literally, the two are at odds.

Posted by: creeper at September 2, 2005 10:08 AM

Where did the dust come from?

Posted by: oj at September 2, 2005 10:12 AM

The dust is God, dude.

Posted by: creeper at September 2, 2005 10:35 AM

Nope, just a step in evolution:

1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
6: And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7: And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
8: And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9: And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.
10: And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
11: And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
12: And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
13: And the evening and the morning were the third day.
14: And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16: And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
17: And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18: And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
19: And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
20: And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
21: And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
22: And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
23: And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24: And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25: And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28: And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29: And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30: And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31: And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Posted by: oj at September 2, 2005 10:40 AM
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