The meeting between Merkel and Sarkozy is simply evidence that neither wishes to change much about the way their nations do business. Their elevation will be like changing deck chairs on the Titanic, neither has the 'oignons' to challenge any of the entrenched interests in their respective nations nor challenge the underlying welfare state which is the primary reason for their economic and cultural malaise.

Our problems with Turkey have been the result of at least half a century of serious fumbling by both the political class and the chowderheads, bigots and traitors at the State Department. Turkey is viscerally hated by the Greek and Armenian communities, a hatred that is to some extent well-merited, and neither group has been shy about using political clout to harm Turkish-American relations.

The State Department is infested with Arabists, and like the Muslim Arabs, they are vehemently anti-Turkish. When Turkey worked with America during the Cold War, holding the southern flank, this enraged the America-haters and Blame-America-First crowd that are also an integral part of the State Department careerist cohort. Finally, the Turks had the bad taste to recognize Israel, and the State Department really got its dander up over the Dardanelles then.

The net result of all this anti-Turkish sentiment in the permanent DC apparat is twofold. First, the Turkish intellectual class is very Euro-focused. Our above described abandonment or hostility to the Turks only exacerbated this. Now, that it is abundantly clear that the EU has no intention of bringing them into the fold, no matter how craven their behavior, that class is essentially orphaned. All their beliefs are shattered. The Ataturkist conceit that Turkey is a part of Europe has evanesced. Second, Turks are proud people and this backhanded treatment by 'the West' is seen as a repudiation of them as a people. So, naturally, lots turn to radical Islam, which has never been part of the Turkish culture. Radical Islam, in turn,preaches a hatred of the US and Israel, so it is easy to see how Turks might develop anti-American feelings.

There is a way out of the box though. The Turkish merchant classes are very closely tied up with the Islamists. If we can convince them of the benefit of close relations between America and Turkey, we can create a Turkish NAFTA and move forward together, doing an end run past the Euros and the backward-looking Islamic extremists. The hard part here is Kurdistan. The Turkish business class is essentially Turkish and patriotic. The American Red State model, where the business community tend to be religiously observant but modern at the same time, is certainly something they would want to emulate.

"The American Red State Model" is a good phrase. The middle east's intransigence and particularly Europe's waywardness make one wonder if this doesn't only grow our schizophrenic (religious-modernist) soil. If anyone has the national identity it takes, it would be Turkey or Iran. The Arabs are religious traditionalists, and to what extent they're tempted by creative destruction they drag their feet and suffer apocalyptic bouts of shame. The Asians generally speaking are remarkable and amusing in ability to jettison old ways for hustling globalism. Truly a people built for the technological age. I think the Arabs are a few generations or a conflagration away from adapting.

Turks and Iranians have a culture thousands of years old, separate and apart from Islam. The Arabs no longer do, if they ever did.

VS Naipaul points this out quite well in 'Among the Believers.'

Isn't that a bit backwards, bart? Arabs have forced Islam to fit into their traditional tribal society, not vice versa. So "orthodox Islam" is equivalent to Arab culture, which of course is much, much different than the culture of Turks, Iranians, Indonesians, etc. So those nations may be able to construct a functional Church/State separation just fine. How the Arabs may do so is not clear...

Except that Shi'ism is Arab in origin too and easily accommodates separation.

Shiism ain't "orthodox Islam"...

Islam, which is a Arab pagan tribal religion, is for all intents and purposes their traditional tribal society. The big black rock in the middle of Mecca predates Mohammed. Where they were able to compel others to speak Arabic, the older cultures were butchered out of existence and the Arab culture became the only one present.

I don't know if you can ever really have 'church/state separation' anywhere in the world, but it would seem to me that at some point the Iranians and others will move in a direction where Islam matters but it does not have totalitarian control of the society.

bart:

anti-pagan

Then what's the crescent moon and the big rock about?

The Ka'ba is simply a replica of Mount Sinai, where the iconoclast Muhammed shattered false idols and forced pagans to acknowledge the one God.

"Then what's the crescent moon and the big rock about?"

What makes you think those are objects of worship?

The moon is simply a symbol like a flag and the big rock is a place of worship.

while it would be nice to have turkey on board, at this point they are too unreliable to be given any special consideration. let them prove, let them demonstrate, that they value american patronage, and then we can talk about their piece of the pie. given the kurds, who needs the turks ?