It is examples like these that make it impossible for me to have any respect for Liberals.

In the face of overwhelming data showing NCLB is working, better and faster than could've been hoped, Liberals are more than happy to throw these poor kids under the bus. Not to help or offer any alternatives for these struggling kids and their families, just to enrich and protect one of their special interest groups (who donate lots of money to Democrats) by maintaining the status quo.

A status quo that has been depriving the poor and disadvantaged a decent chance for decades.

Their hypocrisy stinks.

The cynic in me showing here, but is it a coincidence that the public school here is named Edison? Confused me a bit the first time skimming through the excerpt.

It need not take 60 votes. If you did it as a targeted tax credit, you could put it in a budget reconciliation resolution and ram it through with 51 votes. I have clients who have been working very hard on htis, right now they don't have the votes. Dirty little secret-- many GOP Senators speak with forked tongue.

Dan:

White parents don't want black kids in their schools, so many Republicans oppose vouchers.

Mr. Judd is sadly correct. It's a large part of why Bret Schundler lost in New Jersey. Well, it's not clear that it's actually a racial thing; suffice it to say that middle, upper middle class, and wealthy parents with good public schools don't want poor students to be able to transfer into their schools, making them worse. Plenty of studies have shown that peers make a big difference. Of course, the people likely to transfer are those whose families do care about education, but still, people resist.

Also, economically, for plenty of people a large part of their home value is in the schools it's associated with. A home that's matched with good schools is worth a lot more. People have saved up and paid for these expensive houses in order to get the good schools. They stand to lose a lot of money if you break the link between location and getting to go to a good school.

OJ and John:

Rich people have de facto vouchers in that they have infinite school choice. The rich areas around Detroit all have great public schools. Obvioiusly, the education level of the parents is part of this, but I think the competition from privates has got to be another part of this. Given the choice rich people have for their kids' schools, why aren't there crappy public schools in rich areas?

This same phenomena will appear in the inner cities soon after vouchers become real, so the black-face "problem" (opportunity/gift/whatever) won't be part of the equation for long.

OJ: vouchers are in no way real if they are dependent on some future supermajority; at present, Ted Kennedy continues his victory lap on this issue with just a few thousand kids enjoying vouchers around the country

I must disagree to a blanket statement that white people don't want black kids in their schools. If you mean whites don't want black kids from the ghetto in their schools, then you have a point. However in today's world, it's not only whites who object. Middle and upper class neighborhoods come in all colors now and none of them want their kids education to become part of yet another experiment in social engineering.

Florida is on the right track and that's why the media here are using every trick in their arsenal to discredit the governor and legislators who are trying to loosen the unions grip. The local papers are a daily orgy of negativity about Jeb's destruction of all they hold near and dear. It's tough going and it all can be undone by a Democratic governor next time round.

let's take the case where a child lives in an urban setting, and all of the public schools are bad. there are only poor people in the school district. who is preventing a voucher program in this situation, given that the child has to attend a school that is reachable in a reasonable amount of time ?

Given the choice rich people have for their kids' schools, why aren't there crappy public schools in rich areas?

Areas that just have rich people-- thanks to zoning laws and other things-- have good public schools partly because all the parents are wealthy, care about education, they spend a lot on their schools, and expect a lot from their schools. (They spend a lot but demand results for their spending.)

Areas that have lots of very rich people but also poor people like DC have crappy public schools. NYC has some very good public schools thanks to competitive admissions.

The objections do come hardest from the middle and upper middle class people who have spent a lot in order to buy expensive housing that is expensive because of the good public schools, and don't want to lose a ton of money and/or those good schools.

If testing shows that nearly all public schools are failing, so much the worse for testing.

And does anyone think parochial schools will test better?

A couple years ago, I had the rather painful experience of trying to coach a student taking introductory chemistry at the community college. It had been a long, long time since I'd cracked a chemistry text.

The level of analytical skill and assumption of knowledge required by this freshman text was way, way above what was expected of the advanced students back when I was in engineering school.

This wasn't some elite school. It's the local community college that accepts everyone.

It's true, of course, that if you never open a text in high school, this elementary college text will be beyond you. But so would the -- it now seems to me -- simple text of my youth.

No Child Left Behind is a fraud.

there is an very affluent community near where i live (Newport Beach, CA) which the tv show The O.C. is based on. the public schools there are not well thought of by the town residents so they have started private schools to send their kids to. why this anomaly ? they don't like the lefty administrators and teachers that run the public schools. there are no poor kids attending these public schools, either.

Harry:

Because they do.

Jim:

Kennedy is trying to undo the bill because he realizes he was snookered. W will veto any such attempts because he won.

If only it were that easy we could all sell hope for 10 cents a lb. The problem with the Republican super majority is that it will not happen. Already we have two toadie Republican senators from Ohio and you certainly can't count on Northeastern Republicans contributing to a conservative agenda. With a little encouragement from the media these moderates will resist to save the Republic and temper the conservative reactionaries. As the Dems become irrelevant as the opposition you can count on the moderates to step into the vacuum.

How often has either DeWine or Voinovich voted differently than Frist?

As we've discussed, Harry, NCLB isn't a fraud. It does exactly what it was intended to do.

OJ,

Their vote now does not reflect how they will vote later. The evidence of human experience will tell you that when power is on the line moderates will vote for whatever increases their personal power. That is the problem with moderates generally. With flexible principles or visions they can be swayed by what soothes their egos. To be McCainized by the media is devoutly to be wished.

They'll vote to organize the Senate which is all that matters.

The real estate thing is the problem, not white racism. A lot of people exercised school choice by moving and need to be convinced that letting others do so through vouchers is the right thing to do. The argument has never been effectively made to those suburban homeowners. The vast majority of such people are open to a moral argument in favor of vouchers if it is made and if they are sure the standards of the schools won't sink, which is, after all, the point.

I recall back in my mid 20s (in the Detroit area) explaining vouchers to an apolitical white colleague in his mid 30s who had maxxed out his house budget so his then toddlers would have a good school to go to when they got older. He had never heard of the concept and thought it was brilliant because he knew how lucky he was to be able to afford to move and realized most in Detroit could not. People are not so much selfish or racist as they are naturally skeptical and uninformed.

It does seem to be accomplishing what it really is intended to do, which is to destroy our excellent common school system.

If you take it at face value, it's fraud.

I happened to be reading Eric Temple Bell's 'Mathematics: Queen & Servant of the Sciences' last night. It was published in 1951.

Bell mentioned that American high school students were not taught calculus. (But in those days, half of students didn't even got to high school.) They are now.

Orrin can repeat as many times as he wants that public schools are failing, but it isn't true.

If the tests show that, the tests are phony (as they are).

Harry;

Exactly.