June 3, 2005
FEAR FACTOR:
DUTCH RUB FOR EU CONSTITUTION: Europe's Existential Crisis (Charles Hawley, 6/02/05, Der Spiegel)
Whereas European politicians are embracing the idea of a super state, European citizens are unwilling to let go of the nation state. And the people now, finally, have been given a voice to raise their concerns.That, at least, was the tune Dutch constitution opponents were singing on Wednesday. "When two-thirds of the parliament are for the constitution and two out of three people in this country are against it," said constitution opponent and parliamentarian Geert Wilders, "then that is a sign that a lot is going wrong." The refrain was taken up by Socialist Party politician Gerrie Elfrink. "We in Holland, we feel Dutch," he said. "We want to work together with France, Germany and England. But we want to be Dutch. Europe exists only in the minds of politicians in Brussels."
Opponents of the constitution weren't alone in driving that point home. "Once again, the vote has shown how deep the divide is between the citizens and the (parliament) is," wrote the Dutch daily de Volkskrant.
This, of course, is the populist lesson delivered by the vote: It's now the people's turn to rise up against leaders who many feel have fallen out of step with their citizens. It's a lesson which should be taken to heart.
There's also another to be learned here. Namely, that politicians elected to represent the populace often have an entirely different set of concerns than the voters themselves. Whereas Europe's politicians continue evoking the EU as a bulwark of peace and stability (witness the Dutch government's ill-conceived television advertisements prior to the vote which threatened that a No vote was a vote for war), citizens of the EU's founding members see dangers coming at them from all sides -- be it the possibility of eventual Turkish membership or the much-maligned "Polish plumber." Representative democracy focuses on issues of regional stability and macro-economics. But direct democracy is more concerned with national sovereignty and the pocket book.
Members and supporters of the Socialist Party celebrated the No vote on Wednesday night.
Zoom
AFP
Members and supporters of the Socialist Party celebrated the No vote on Wednesday night.
And make no mistake, the referenda in both Holland and France were not about the constitution itself so much as they were -- in large part -- votes of fear. The French, as Timothy Garton Ash pointed out in a column in the Guardian this week, are afraid of losing their jobs to cheaper workers coming from the new Eastern European member states. They are afraid of immigration from Poland, Turkey, Romania, Bulgaria, Poland and other new and potential club members. Generally, they are afraid of change. The Dutch fear losing control of their socially liberal policies on euthanasia and marijuana. In immigration and integration, they now see a vexing problem. And like the French, they are concerned about the exodus of jobs to countries with lower wages.With the populist cat now out of the bag, however, Europe must now figure out where to go next. It faces a profoundly existential set of questions. Has the EU gone too far in passing an ever-lengthening list of regulations controlling more and more aspects of Europeans' lives? Has it over-extended itself by a massive enlargement that grew from 15 to 25 in 2004 and will jump to 27 in two years, with even more on the horizon? Is "peace in Europe" still enough of a motivation for European integration on a continent where many countries now take that concept for granted?
Forget Europe's existential crisis, what about the question of whether Europeans are going to exist? Posted by Orrin Judd at June 3, 2005 12:00 AM
"...witness the Dutch government's ill-conceived television advertisements prior to the vote which threatened that a No vote was a vote for war..."
The question is not whether Europeans are going to exist (after all, Europe is not going to disappear and whoever occupies it is, by definition, European), but rather whether they will be totally incoherent. Who are the Dutch going to attack after a 'No' vote?
Posted by: jd watson at June 3, 2005 4:32 AMOJ:
Is that as opposed to the US... which is what exactly?
Posted by: Tommo Peaceful at June 3, 2005 8:08 AMAn idea.
Posted by: oj at June 3, 2005 8:19 AMConsisting of ethnicities?
Posted by: Tommo Peaceful at June 3, 2005 8:41 AMNo.
Posted by: oj at June 3, 2005 8:47 AMThen an unrealised idea.
Posted by: Tommo Peaceful at June 3, 2005 8:56 AMYes, the key part of the idea is that it is unrealizable, because of Man's Fallen nature.
Posted by: oj at June 3, 2005 9:54 AMAre you equating the US with the Garden of Eden, or more ideallistically, God?
Posted by: Tommo Peaceful at June 3, 2005 9:59 AMI think the ethnic Dutch and the ethnic French might be onto something. Let's apply their "idea" here in America.
We ethnic Californians and the ethnic New Yorkers can do things the way we want to, and keep our revenues for our own purposes and let the ethnic Kansans and the ethnic Texans do whateverthehell it is they want to do with their own resources instead of making us subsidize their "ideas."
Posted by: lonbud at June 3, 2005 10:03 AMMr. Peaceful:
First, note how silly lonbud's idea sounds, precisely because americanism is universalist, not particularist?
Second, no, God threw us out of Eden because we're Fallen. We're obligated though to come as close to the ideal He set us as we can--which sadly isn't very close. America institutionalized this idea at its Founding:
" When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquillity, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
That the Europeans neither understand the basis of rights and just government nor have their realization as an end is why they are doomed.
Posted by: oj at June 3, 2005 10:11 AMOJ:
Humans never made it to Eden because we've never been able to agree on what exactly Eden should be.
The American ideal, although claiming to be inclusive, is - by virtue of its Christian ideology - extremely exclusive, and so fails to embrace the rights of all citizens. The French constitution, on the other hand, whilst similarly adressing liberty, equality and fraternity, also professes to respect all beliefs: The basis of rights and just government.
Posted by: Tommo Peaceful at June 3, 2005 10:41 AMoj:
For precisely the same reason are the followers of GWB & Co. doomed. They have a very particular idea about who has rights and what is just and anyone who disagrees with them is subject to being executed, or bombed, or banned from their American eden.
How do you reconcile your championing of the Declaration of Independence and its assertion that "all men are created equal" with your previous claim that "few people have the capacity for critical thought"?
Posted by: lonbud at June 3, 2005 10:43 AMMr. Peaceful:
Christianity and the civil religion that flows from it is open to anyone who chooses it. That's why our society attracts so many immigrants.
If you disagree with the American ideal you're obviously unwelcome though.
Posted by: oj at June 3, 2005 10:45 AMlonbud:
What does equality have to do with identicality? Are Men unequal because Wilt Chamberlain is tall and Dudley Moore short?
The capacity for critical thinking is not a useful ability and those who have it tend to be a cancer on society. All the worthwhile thoughts were thought a long time ago and the criticisms of them tend to vapidity.
Posted by: oj at June 3, 2005 10:48 AMOJ:
Your society attracts so many immigrants because there are good prospects of jobs and economic stability. They do not all wish to embrace Christianity or the 'civil religion that flows from it'.
The capacity for critical thinking is what makes us human.
Posted by: at June 3, 2005 11:04 AMoj:
Your confusion is at a critical stage; I'm afraid it may be so persistent that further efforts to treat your malady will go unrewarded.
There is nothing civil about the religion that flows from Christianity. I daresay more people have perished in the name of Jesus Christ than any single figure in the history of man.
...open to anyone who chooses it. Yes, and should one exercise one's god-given capacity for free will and choose an alternate form of religion, well, hellfire, damnation, and everlasting suffering -if not a black hood and hotwired testicles- shall be his just dessert.
And where did you get the idea immigrants come here for the Christianity? The come here for the bling bling, boss.
Critical thinking is not a useful ability? All the worthwhile thoughts were thought a long time ago? Why do you bother to get out of bed each morning my sad little friend?
Posted by: lonbud at June 3, 2005 11:05 AMOJ:
Your society attracts so many immigrants because there are good prospects for jobs and economic stability. They do not all wish to embrace Christianity or the 'civil religion that flows from it'.
The capacity for critical thinking is what makes us human.
Posted by: Tommo Peaceful at June 3, 2005 11:06 AMWilt and Dudley are equal now.
---
Ohh, they're leeches?
Our stability and economic success flows from our civil religion and Christianity.
Their civil religion can't provide what ours can.
Posted by: Sandy P. at June 3, 2005 11:10 AMSandy P:
No, not leeches - humans. It's part of human nature - indeed any animal's nature - to desire better living conditions, and to go wherever that seems most likely.
And no, your stability and economic success flows from capitalism, which is the opposite of Christianity.
Posted by: Tommo Peaceful at June 3, 2005 11:15 AMOJ:
Obviously your own critical thinking skills are valuable because without them you'd be unable to appreciate the virtues of the ideas you love in comparison to other ideas. If you didn't have those skills, you'd roll over for whatever supposedly new and improved ideas come down the pike. You'd be a sucker for appeals from authority. You'd believe something new every day. You'd be John Kerry. Or Europe.
Posted by: rds at June 3, 2005 11:34 AM
rds:
i thought john kerry and france and the dutch were supposed to be aligned with "old" ideas, "old" europe.
Posted by: lonbud at June 3, 2005 11:40 AMlonbud:
My dig at Europe had in mind that the continent has changed dominant political ideologies every few decades for the last 200 years or so. And many of those ideologies were murderous and nasty. Meanwhile ideological fashions in the US since 1776 all start with the premises of the declaration of independence and don't tend to wander very far. Imported ideological fashions from Europe (marxism, fascism, hard communism) just don't find very fertile ground here. Remarkably, for example, the US has never had a Socialist party that met with any electoral success to speak of. The current European fashion, which I'll clumsily call transnational secular multicultural soft-socialist bureaucratism (not a great phrasing on my part, but you see how I view it), has some American adherents in the academy and the press, and its conflict with traditional American ideas is what makes European and American relations so poor at this moment.
I don't really know what Rumsfeld meant by his dig. Sure resonated, though.
Posted by: rds at June 3, 2005 12:12 PMlonbud:
Yes, you're free to choose not to believe in America.
Posted by: oj at June 3, 2005 12:15 PMrds:
I don't have any. I accept whole hog everything my grandfathers believed.
Posted by: oj at June 3, 2005 12:18 PMMr. Peaceful:
Capitalism is Christianity applied to economics, as democracy is Christianity applied to government. That's why we find the three together.
Posted by: oj at June 3, 2005 12:20 PMoj:
Your grandfathers had unusually prescient, well-developed thoughts on why, say, the expansion of international law is incompatible with American democracy.
Posted by: rds at June 3, 2005 12:31 PMMy grandfather on one side came to the US from Czechoslovakia in the early 20th century. I shudder to think what his political ideas were. Good thing I have critical thinking skills.
Posted by: rds at June 3, 2005 12:35 PMMy grandfather on one side came to the US from Czechoslovakia in the early 20th century. Good thing I have critical thinking skills.
Posted by: rds at June 3, 2005 12:37 PMUnfortunately I may have gotten my grandfather's internet posting skills.
Posted by: rds at June 3, 2005 12:39 PMOJ:
"Capital is Christianity applied to economics"
Then God bless MacDonalds, Bill Gates and Sweatshops.
Posted by: Tommo Peaceful at June 3, 2005 12:41 PMI had to reject other ideas to get there. I went to Yale for heaven's sake.
Posted by: rds at June 3, 2005 12:45 PMyes, Yale is a center of critical thinking.
Posted by: oj at June 3, 2005 12:52 PMpeople come here for the freedom, the rule of law, and the opportunity to be successful. oj didn't mean you have to be christian to fit in here, you have to be american in your heart and mind.
when you say " I daresay more people have perished in the name of Jesus Christ than any single figure in the history of man." please put a number to that. then compare that number to the 100M who have perished in the last century alone, to the false god of "equality".
Posted by: cjm at June 3, 2005 12:52 PMBut according to OJ, to be American in your heart and mind is to aspire to an unrealisable ideal. Isn't capitalism more realistic?
Posted by: Tommo Peaceful at June 3, 2005 1:15 PM"anyone who disagrees with them [GWB and Co.] is subject to being executed, or bombed, or banned from their American eden."
I wonder how Lonbud escaped?
Capitalism doesn't exist.
Posted by: David Cohen at June 3, 2005 1:58 PMcjm:
people come here for the freedom, the rule of law, and the opportunity to be successful. oj didn't mean you have to be christian to fit in here, you have to be american in your heart and mind.
except, the current regime and its allies in big gov't have little interest in the rule of law and no clue about the american heart and mind.
their interest lies in ignoring laws that impede their financial and cultural aspirations to hegemony, in changing laws that block their intention to establish here in america a fundamentalist theocracy rooted in what is actually a perverted interpretation of the thought and teaching of jesus christ.
oj meant exactly what he said. in his view, america is a puritan nation, open to anyone who'll bend over and accept the stern punishments of his brand of christian hypocricy.
Posted by: lonbud at June 3, 2005 2:15 PMthis is a stern country and the better for it. that's why trouble makers don't come here, they go to europe where the dying is easy. lonbud, you have a child and work with children so you know that man in his uncivilized state is pretty damn nasty.
when you start using terms like "regime" you lose all credibility. present an argument and back it up with references, please.
Posted by: cjm at June 3, 2005 2:23 PMWhen you put it like that I can see why you love America so much. The land of the free...?
Posted by: Tommo Peaceful at June 3, 2005 2:29 PMtommo, name a freer place on earth and i will move there in a shot. instead of sounding like stalin's parrot, why don't you provide some references to all the oppression you perceive ?
Posted by: cjm at June 3, 2005 2:53 PMcjm:
A Stalinist I most certainly am not. You are quick to criticise the problems with other nations and slow to recognise those of your own.
Which part of 'freer' are you seeking? France has religious tolerance...
OJ:
Liberte, egalite et fraternite?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal"
Posted by: Tommo Peaceful at June 3, 2005 6:48 PMYes, Created.
The French Revolution--and its children: socialism, communism, nazism, etc.--stands for the proposition that the State should intervene to make men equally wealthy.
Egalite is a great evil from which Europe has never recovered.
Posted by: oj at June 3, 2005 6:54 PMfrance, and any socialist country existant, has far less freedom than we have here. in fact, their religous tolerance causes them to ban wearing head scarves and yarmakas (sorry for the mispelling) and crucifexes on chains.
Posted by: cjm at June 3, 2005 6:57 PM"Remarkably, for example, the US has never had a Socialist party that met with any electoral success to speak of."
Wait until Howard Dean is done.
Posted by: Robert Schwartz at June 3, 2005 11:46 PMOJ:
There are often unintented consequences of even the noblest of ideals (I do not class Nazism amongst these). The American pursuit of liberty also has these (McCarthyism, the Iran-Contra affair, electral fraud in the penultimate Presidential election amongst them).
Does your faith not advocate equality? (Matthew 22:38-39, Mark 12:31)
Posted by: Tommo Peaceful at June 4, 2005 2:36 PMcjm:
That is just in state schools, and aims to promote equality - it only applies to visible ostentatious religious symbols, there are no witch hunts.
Posted by: Tommo Peaceful at June 4, 2005 2:43 PMMr. Peaceful:
What's unintended about pursuing communist subversives at home, toppling Communist regimes abroad, and electing the party of liberty?
You'll note that Christ quite specifically makes loving others a task for each of us, not an excuse for oppressive government?
i guess the religous tolerance in france is why the jewish people there are leaving in droves. people used to make excuses about stalin, too. funny how your sense of outrage is limited to the imaginary sins of america, while the real evil in the world gets your blessings.
Posted by: cjm at June 4, 2005 3:39 PMOJ:
You might have an argument if these events had been in accordance with the law. They are against human rights, international law and your own constitutional law.
Quite.
cjm:
I find your comments ever more baffling. If I were less mild mannered I might even be offended. Why you continuously raise the ghost of an oppressive dictator is beyond me. And I am not sure to which 'imaginery' sins of America you refer. Nor do I give my blessings to real evil anywhere.
Posted by: Tommo Peaceful at June 4, 2005 4:31 PMMr. Peaceful:
Not according to any court that's ever looked at them and not by the lights of the American public.
Posted by: oj at June 4, 2005 4:40 PMOJ:
I am content to let you have the last word on this, because it is a topic on which we cannot agree, with ideologies so far apart. We do not have a better system here, but at least we can see the problems.
The Tao Te Ching says that the wise rule by emptying hearts and stuffing bellies. Maybe America does have a wise ruler.
Posted by: Tommo Peaceful at June 5, 2005 9:51 AMNote that the Orient was never governed well until it adopted the Anglo-American system? Though with only the form and not the substance they won't make it.
Posted by: oj at June 5, 2005 9:57 AM