I'm surprised to see you sticking up for Maoism, one of whose principle sales tools -- pretty effective, too -- was to tell the peasants that concubinage was out.

This is not a sexual revolution in China, it is a return to traditional values.

Mr. Eager: Even I can see that that is a really silly argument. Hitler was against abusing animals. Pope John Paul II was against abusing animals. Therefore, Pope John Paul II = Hitler?
Doesn't work.

And I'd say it wasn't a return to traditional values but rather a sliding back into moral decay.

Buttercup:

Harry likes to scan history for all the juicy examples of social pathology and declare that they reflect traditional values.

Wasn't Mao a notorious Christian?

Harry - Concubinage or the taking of a 'second wife' by the wealthy is an unfortunate Chinese tradition which has damaged many families, but it's not the same thing as widespread sexual promiscuity. I don't know what Mao's selling points were, but I suspect they more nearly resembled Marxist anti-wealthy rhetoric than Christian chastity.

Paul: take a deep breath or get your smelling salts. The pendulum is already swinging in the opposite direction here and one day also will be there. China is going through a morals crisis, no doubt, but didn't we (and Christianity) survive the fall of Rome? Societies descending into mass lust and climbing back out is the normal state of human affairs for as far back as you can go. Compared to the wanton sex and orgies that were taking place in Rome, the Chinese are not even warmed up yet. The vacuum of any higher moral authority in China is indeed destined to be filled by religion, mostly by Christianity, I expect, viewing current trends. Regarding whether Christianity can compete with Hollywood, are you judging the success of Christianity by the percentage of the world that is wooed by it (versus Hollywood values?) Christ didn't pin Christianity's success on getting over 50 percent of the souls on earth to follow it at any given sampling. In fact, all it was/is is an invitation (he made clear we are perfectly free to not listen) and a promise. Christians, as they were in the early years, should be perfectly prepared to be a hated super minority. And one who is behaving in a sexually selfish manner today is the same person who regrets these decisions years later -- in other words, asks Jesus to come into his or her heart. Remember the parable of the lost sheep? How much happier is the shephard to have found the one lost one?

David: Obviously you mean Chiang Kai-shek. Mao Ze-dong was about as Christian as King Tut.

FG - Agreed. I wasn't questioning the ultimate triumph of God, but rather how much suffering there will be prior to that triumph. The Israelites made it to the Promised Land, but not without 40 years in the desert. As you say, Christians may need to accept being a hated minority - even in America that's possible, though I pray not.

David's comment was a joke.

Also, as for smelling salts, I'm an optimist - thus the "Great Awakening is Global" title.

Interestingly, some Chinese look to America as an 'advanced society', while a notorious strata of Americans look to Western Europe as the exemplar of an 'advanced society'. I suppose looking to a distant culture and trying to extract the fun parts of it while ignoring the negative implications of those parts is an all-too-human trait.

oh, for pete's sake. I didn't say they were 'good' traditional values.

Orrin is the one who thinks traditional values are valuable. I think a lot of them -- Chinese, ours or anybody else's -- are crap.

However, it's a fact that concubinage was traditional for anyone who could afford it. And that the Chicoms attempted to wipe it out.

And that that was a selling point for the poor.

Harry:

Behaviour and values are two different things. Do you think extra-marital sex, abortion, infanticide and crime are values simply because people engage in them?

Tell me what you do, and I'll tell you what your values are.

So the answer is yes.

That is why, for example, there is no such thing as being 'pro-choice.' You're either pro-abortion or anti-abortion (or, perhaps, indifferent). Either is a value, depending on your values.

You forget, Harry, that we're all hypocrites.

I don't forget that. That's exactly my point.

What people do is the only thing that matters. What they say is meaningless. If they won't act on it, that must mean they don't believe it.

It's the difference between being saved by faith or by works.

Orrin's a faith guy. I'm a works guy.

Works for me, so long as they're your own works. You find that to be a challenge, I think.

Harry:

Right, so adulterers and bank robbers hold adultery and bank robbery as values by definition, and theyb belive the world would be a better place if everyone practiced them?

maybe bank robbers, et als, don't think what they are doing is good, but they also don't think it is bad, either.

The "values" of bank robbers and adulterers aren't their overt actions, but their underlying worldview.

Moral people refrain from harming others because they don't wish to cause harm; amoral people often believe that it's up to individuals to protect themselves from harm.
If a bank doesn't provide enough security, they're "asking" to be robbed.
Whatever one can get away with, one would be foolish not to do.

Harry: I didn't even know that you were a "saved" guy.