Because the controversy is over an attempt to change the current rules (which you deny exist) to new rules (which you claim currently exist).

You intermingle three different questions to come up with an answer that is wrong for all three.

Can people convert to Judaism: Absolutely.

Can converts, regardless of under whose auspices they convert, immigrate to Israel as of right: Absolutely.

Can non-Jews in Israel convert: Absolutely, but only if they go through the Orthodox conversion process.

"potentially precedent-setting ... under certain circumstances...legislation to dilute its effect...Orthodox monopoly...significant implications...only conversions recognized"

State a thesis, and I'll debunk it.

Within the Jewish State there are institutionalized procedures for determining people's respective Jewishness, what we could fairly call Jewish Inquisitions.

Ooh, close, so so close, but no. What's happening here is that the Israeli government is deciding who is qualified for automatic Israeli citizenship, a matter of civil law. In order to qualify, a convert must have been converted by an Orthodox Rabbi. The State is not saying, nor can it say, that non-Orthodox converts are not Jews (they can go worship in any way they wish)and, in fact, they do receive other rights as Jews, including the right of return.

Yes, within the Jewish State there are institutionalized procedures for determining people's respective Jewishness. Some of the institutions are civil, some religious, with much interplay between the two.

Both David Cohen and Orrin Judd IV enjoy the right of return. They can't get much more ecumenical than that.

IV is a Baptist minister. I'm V. VI has the right of return.

They have institutionalized systems for picking and choosing who's Jewish and who's fit to be Israeli.

Sorry about the screw up, but V does, II.

Anyways, there are non-Jewish citizens of Israel, there are non-Israeli Jews, there are non-Jewish immigrants, there are non-Orthodox Israeli Jews and non-Orthodox Israeli converts. Under discussion now is whether, for converts to automatically become citizens, they must be Orthodox converts. Regardless of the answer, the non-Orthodox converts will still be Jews and still be eligible to become naturalized citizens, a process that is easier than becoming a naturalized American.

No, under discussion is whether within the Jewish State there are institutionalized procedures for determining people's respective Jewishness--from which determination flow certain rights and privileges.

There are, of course. Every society is entitled to its own Inquisition.

The US Army has Jewish chaplains. I'm pretty sure that they're not self-credentialing, but the rejects aren't any less Jewish.

By the way, is anyone but the two of us at all interested in this (making a big assumption about OJ's level of interest)?

The rejects aren't in the Army society though.

Whereas non-Orthodox converts are Jews and are members of Israeli society.

If that's who the institutions are picking and choosing these days, though as the story says there's some question about who's a Jew and who isn't. But that's a matter for the authorities to settle.

Yes, I understand that you think that the article says that the Israeli government is choosing who gets to be a Jew. But it really says that the Israeli government is choosing which converts get to be Israeli citizens as of right.

The privilege of being real Jew.

No, the privilege of being an Israeli citizen without having to live there for a couple of years and learning Hebrew.

"privilege"

"Israeli"

Bingo!

Yes, Israel controls who is an Israeli, not who it a Jew.

From among "Jews"

No, from among everyone who wants to be an Israeli citizen. There is no requirement that citizens be Jews.

But there is, how did you put it, ..."the privilege of being an Israeli citizen without having to live there for a couple of years and learning Hebrew."

I've enjoyed watching you two talk this through. You've beat this horse beyond recognition. I thought only Christian Reformed folks and Presbyterians had such discussions. Shalom Chavirim.

First, wasn't someone telling us a couple days ago to go to bed earlier.

Second, thanks, Dave.

Third, I may have been a little facetious when I wrote that. You can't become an Orthodox convert without having learned Hebrew, which is one of the reasons that being an Orthodox convert is considered a functional equivalent of living in Israel for a couple of years and learning Hebrew.

So, to sum up, you don't have to be Jewish to have the right of return, you don't have to be Jewish to live in Israel, you don't have to be Jewish to be or become an Israeli citizen and to be Jewish you don't have to be an Orthodox convert. Now, the Supreme Court has said that you don't have to be an Orthodox convert to become an Israeli citizen automatically. So, your point is ...

In changing their definitions they're still just picking and choosing. My only point is: that's what societies do--Modern Israel just as surely as 1492 Spain.

Only if having to go through a second conversion or wait around for a couple of years is the functional equivalent of being put to the question or burned at the stake.

So we're agreed.

Well, to really nail this down we should do some more investigation. I'll go live in Israel for a couple of years and we'll find a volunteer to put you to the rack, and then we can compare notes.

Jewish food is the rack.

That's just nuts. Donna, a conservative convert, by the way, makes a Passover dinner that makes the angels weep. Fluffy matzoh balls in a tasty chicken broth, a tender brisket and crunchy tasty latkes hot from the oil. Mmmm, hot oil.

I can't wait.