The particular institutional structure by which we build roads may be suboptimal, but the roads themselves are very good for society.

It's anti-social.

The state builds roads and has done so since the Roman Empire. That's one of it's jobs.

Yeah, loading the family in a car to traverse the country and expand parochial horizons is just terrible.

Plus you don't hear many country singers these days talking about hitching a ride on a freight train. Now, Big and Rich carry on about their Silverado Trucks. I can agree with Orrin at least that THAT is bad for society!

:)

There's no better family activity than a train ride.

Come to God's country and we'll go with you:

http://www.hoborr.com/

There's no better family activity than a train ride.

Come to God's country and we'll go with you:

http://www.hoborr.com/

If they dual-track the mainlines through the heart of the country, OJ. There's nothing more annoying than zooming along through the great middle of the U.S. at 75 mph on Amtrak passing cars on the nearby Interstate ... and then stopping dead for 30 minutes while three freight trains go the other direction on a single-track line. Only the northeast corridor trains really don't have to deal with that problem.

John:

Even with that you'll still get there faster and far happier and that's after sixty years of inane transportation policy.

oj, I'm glad to know you, but how long do you think we'd survive in the same train car before one of us was using the other's pelt for a hat?

The Pullman Car porters keep things in hand.

When's the last time you actually took a long-distance train ride.

How can it be anti-social to reduce the cost of people traveling to one another? With no roads, your Living Room Rule would be universal.

If you want society while travelling, we can put mobile Internet access on the highways, so that people can comment in online communities while riding in their cars.

It's because those three freight trains not only pay for themselves, but subsidize the waiting Amtrak coaches, too. And the only reason those coaches can do 79mph while they are moving is that the railroad maintains that trackbed for their fast intermodal service (which is probably at least one of the "freight" trains you are waiting on.) Unfortunately, those who claim to want rail travel are the most likely to be unwilling to actually pay for it themselves.

And don't blame highways for the demise of rail passenger service, but the airlines and their gov't subsidies back in the 50s and 60s.

David:

Syracuse to Florida for Spring Break, senior year.

Based on the current trail schedules, versus my own vehicle travel time going west (where the speed limits are 75 mph until you get to California), the formula is roughly an extra hour of time spent traveling on the train versus the car for every 125 to 150 miles of travel. You make some of that up during the night when you're sleeping while the train's moving, but all those unnecessary stops in the middle of nowhere, because freights have the right-of-way on single track lines, just kills rail travel's viability in most parts of the country.

pj:

It doesn't reduce the cost, just makes them travel alone instead of with others.

Syracuse to Florida for Spring Break, senior year.

At least Amtrak finally got smart and moved the Syracuse station back downtown near the Carousel Center, instead of the former location, which I believe was somewhere around Springfield, Mass. And the trains do go to Penn Station now instead of Grand Center, which eliminates the crosstown trek. But train connections outside of the Boston-New York-Washington corridor are still a pain in the rear to make without long layovers.

John:

Not "still", but now.

Some?

So, single, no kids, no time pressure and mostly drunk?

No one in their right mind would drive there with kids. And the drunk is part of the point.

John's right, OJ. We've looked a long distance train rides within the last couple of years and it's just too slow. It's much faster to drive yourself with family, not to mention the added convenience of having your car at your destination. Dealing with luggage is far easier as well and scheduling is more accurate (our last 3 hour train ride to Chicago took 7 because of scheduling issues). If we're going to use public transportation we'll fly and get there in 1/10 the time compared to a train.

Yes, that's why it would require a reversal in policy

I love to travel the interstate highway in my SUV. Ahh, the open road ...

Trains are for coal and cattle, right?

Take the kids to DisneyWorld on the train, and then we'll talk.

W/o the interstates, oj, you'd be missing a fine Fountains of Wayne CD.

Canals!!!

People owning train companies realized that cement, soybeans, and truck chassis complain a lot less than do humans.

They'd be Fountains of Train.

And I can't remember if it's this thread, but the best Country song of the past several years (excluding Johnny Cash) is Josh Turner's Long Black Train.

oj - It reduces the cost by not forcing you to coordinate schedule, pick-up, and egress with other people. Traveling alone is a huge time-saver, and nothing's more costly than time.

Yes, indeed. And while we're pushing the metaphor, don't forget Randy (!) Johnson.

pj:

We've tons of time, too little society.

There is another way cars reduce costs.

The incremental expense of carrying an entire family in a car, as opposed to one person, is practically nil.

As opposed by train (or plane for that matter), where the expense multiplies by the number of travelers.

As opposed to multiplying the cost of operating that number of cars.

OJ:

You are showing your notorious inumeracy.

Tom - Canalboats from the Erie Canal era are better than trains for sociability. Nice and slow (

But slow.

Our car culture, together with our gun and sports cultures, is part of American individualistic militarism. These things are what make us what we are and what account for our hegemony. Euroweenies ride trains--let them.

No, it was horses.

Cars are modern-day horses. That's only really true for motorcycles and pickup trucks, but we're putting up the big tent on this one.

No one was ever nuzzled by a car.

Or kicked in the head by one.