Symbols can also become dangerously larger than the facts. High reptile-brain appeal. High tribal appeal. Central to all mass movements.

Ghostcat:
What else is there?

It wouldn't shock me if the president comes out against the death penalty before his term is over.

David
I would be very disappointed if he did. Justice demands that some people die. It would only "symbolize" the inability of the President to distinguish innocence from guilt. It would not help further "culture of life issues", but only muddle further the ability of society to decide right from wrong.

George Will has made the conservative case against capital punishment quite eloquently and in a way that is impossible for the anti-government Right to refute.

After all, such folk insist that the government is so incompetent as to not even be able to do things like run a railway but then justify giving it the power to execute people.

ghost:

Hopefully.

David,

I guess you have a different Torah from mine.

If anything we need a much more ready application of the death penalty than we have now. We would all be infinitely safer if we were to off about 20,000 people a year(about the same percentage as Singapore). The DNA Project makes it far more likely that we get the right man, so we might as well use it to get more efficient justice.

There is no good reason to keep most violent felons alive at a cost to the taxpayer of over $40,000 a year.

OJ,

There are some things only government can run, like the criminal justice system and national defense. Are you suggesting privatizing the air force?

If the government cannot kill people from Timothy McVeigh to this Couey guy in Florida who apparently murdered Jessica Lunsford, then it has no business doing anything at all, and will have lost the moral right to prevent vigilantes from taking over.

George Will has been driven to distraction by all the problems in IL, his home state.

If it can't kill people it can't pave roads?

Boy, no point in being wishy-washy around here.

The death penalty is certainly constitutional, and there are deeds so inhuman that all right to life is forfeit. But any conservative worthy of the name would trade a death penalty ban for overturning Roe in a heartbeat.

A poorly paved road is unlikely to hurt anyone (I'm from PA, and I know there are exceptions), but examples abound of people who have been hurt and murdered by criminals who navigated the eddy currents or fell through the cracks of the courts.

Note that another of George Will's ideas is that the primary focus of government is to ensure that its citizens be able to walk down the street safely.

If such trade were offered on Roe v. Wade, it should be taken immediately. Are you postulating that Bush will (indirectly) offer such an alternative when submitting names in nomination? An interesting thought.

jim:

Yes, road maintenance is less deadly than execution. Those portions of the Right which insist that the first is an abomination but the latter harmless have an obvious coherence problem.

Jim: The problem is that there isn't anyone out there to bargain with, other than the electorate. I do think that a Roe for the death penalty deal is out there to be made, but more because an unambiguous culture of life (understanding that I'm not suggesting that abortion and execution are in any way equivalent) gains more voters than it loses then because the Dems could cut such a deal. They are too much the party of abortion to be able to trade it for anything, even political power.

OJ -

We both understand the dangers of mass movements. We both understand that absolute power corrupts absolutely. That's why we live on intersecting streets in Centerville. We may or may not agree that self-denial can be every bit as dangerous as self-indulgence.

When one grows up and lives one's life under twin Swords of Damocles ... mental illness on one side of the family, violent alcoholism on the other ... one acquires a certain taste for moderation and balance.

ghost:

No, I don't think you do understand:

http://www.brothersjudd.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/reviews.detail/book_id/743

The danger of a mass movement dedicate to life and liberty is pretty minimal, except to those who oppose both.

If it were possible to trade a death-penalty ban for a Roe v Wade overturn, as David suggests, every decent person would be for it in a moment. But many Catholic bishops have been pushing such a trade for decades -- hoping that a position against the death penalty would help build support for saving babies -- but it hasn't worked. Indeed, what's impressive is the strong correlation between opposition to the death penalty and support for abortion. It appears that members of the "culture of death" think murder is no big deal and don't want it to face serious punishment; while members of the "culture of life" are horrified by murder and generally willing to send murderers to meet their maker. Increasingly, the bishops' opposition to the death penalty looks like a concession to the culture of death.

Libertarians often do make the argument that government can't be trusted to execute criminals; but that's why we have juries, so that someone outside government has to evaluate guilt. As the Willie Horton case demonstrated, government also can't be trusted to punish murderers by means other than execution; and econometric studies have estimated that each execution of a murderer deters an additional 14 murders. I don't think the anti-death-penalty libertarians have a strong case; but it's at least a case that can be argued.

I hope I am not being intemperate - everyone at my home has the flu except for me. I wound up watching a bit too much about the Jessica case on Sunday, and have burned too much adrenaline reacting to dim bulbs like Chris Wallace with respect to Terri Schiavo.

This is one of those (rare) times when Michael Savage makes more sense than anyone in the MSM. I really can't abide with all the hand-wringing and long faces when it is obvious that the 'elites' just want her (and her family) to GO AWAY. Perhaps I have heard too much of Mark Levin and his attacks on the judiciary lately, but it seems this is one case where the judge needs to be jerked, and hard. Perhaps that is unfair (the real villians are at the Circuit level, and in D.C.), but the restoration of political balance has to start somewhere.

I suppose my basic reaction is this: if Michael Schiavo had convinced people that he had Terri's interests in his heart, most would support him no matter what decision he made. But that is not the case.

oj-

I do, indeed, understand ... if imperfectly. My life experiences, my instincts, and my idiosyncratic faith all scream at me that power corrupts, no matter how well-intended. Relinquishing one's will to another human ... most definitely including religious leaders ... is dangerous. I say this as an abused son, betrayed patient, and disillusioned altar boy. Thereby confirming and expanding your theory. But there are more things in heaven and earth ...

Your argument in favor of Michael Schiavo killing the wife he calls a bitch and who he's cuckolded is that you oppose "Relinquishing one's will to another human"?

oj -

No. Am glad, though, that you acknowledge he's still her husband. Some have shamelessly suggested otherwise. MISS Schiavo, indeed. That's positively Orwellian.

Many of the relevant facts still seem murky, her wishes even murkier. His self-interest does seem to include her death. Her parents' interests, while less than pristine by some accounts, seem aligned with her living. For the specific case, I want her to live, legal and political (and financial) considerations notwithstanding.

On the other hand, I am very concerned about the religious right's apparent disregard for personal choice (hers, especially, whatever it is or was) and state law. I am equally concerned about alienating the Libertarian contingent of the conservative majority. Those are among my interests in this mess.

Certainly by virtue of his behavior he's unworthy of the title, but the legal fiction endures.

Totally agree. No Mort Kondracke, he. I'm with Mort.

But you'd let Michael Schiavo kill Terri?

Mort was prepared to forego the feeding tube for Millie if that was what she wanted. Having previously urged him to help her die, she ultimately decided to accept the tube ... much to Mort's relief. She hung on for 2-3 years after the tube was inserted. Good for both of them. I would have morally approved the other course, if she had so chosen.

Doesn't answer your question.

Under the circumstances of this case, all else being equal, I want her to live. But all else is never equal, and I want to preserve spousal rights, states' rights, an Oregon patient's right to choose a humane death, and the conservative coalition.

Doesn't answer your question.

Work it through the Federal courts and accept the eventual legal outcome there. I can't see burning down D.C. or merging with ... who, Iran? ... to
carry on the struggle.

Ever do triage?

this isn't triage; it's murder.

Not as proactively as Kesey's Chief Bromden. I found myself silently applauding him.

Yes, RPM is the Christ. What could feel better than murdering God?

Symbolically. Bromden still did the mercy killing thing. Only dogma can square the circle.

No, it had nothing to do with mercy. RPM had to die for the Chief to be free.

It was both. Circle squared.

And Nurse Ratched had to go to the waiting room in the sky, first.

No, she doesn't.

Perhaps we could chat about the implications of the holy patriarch and the evil matriarch on another thread.