February 28, 2005

BABY GOT BACK (via AWW):

Lebanon's pro-Syrian PM resigns (CNN, 2/28/05)

The Lebanese government abruptly resigned Monday during a stormy parliamentary debate, prompting a tremendous roar from tens of thousands of anti-government protesters in central Beirut.

The demonstrators, awash in a sea of red, white and green Lebanese flags, had demanded the pro-Syrian government's resignation -- and the withdrawal of Syrian troops from Lebanon -- since this month's assassination of former Prime Minister Rafik Hariri.

Demonstrators in Beirut's Martyrs Square chanted, "Syria out! Syria out!" after Prime Minister Omar Karami announced his resignation in a speech aired by the Lebanese Broadcasting Corporation.


Posted by Orrin Judd at February 28, 2005 4:01 PM
Comments

While I don't think it should matter one whit to us how the Lebanese are governed, Bush can put this one in his plus column. Most of what he did was growl menacinlgy, but that turned out to be the right policy in this one instance.

Posted by: Derek Copold at February 28, 2005 4:35 PM

Of course, it should be bourne in mind, that the situation could grow very ugly very quickly, too. Lebanon is still fractured along sectarian lines, and the people in the opposition, like Walid Jumblatt, are not exactly civil-rights-minded folk. We may wind up wishing for the old system of Syrian tutelage, put into place by George Bush I, to come back.

Posted by: Derek Copold at February 28, 2005 4:38 PM

Remember all the Cassandra's fretting about the "Arab Street". Perhaps they had a point after all. Just not the one they expected.

Posted by: MB at February 28, 2005 5:38 PM

The Beirut "street" is not representative of the broader Arabic world.

Posted by: Derek Copold at February 28, 2005 5:42 PM

What is? The similarly insistent on democracy Iraqi, Palestinian, Sa'udi or Afghan street?

Posted by: oj at February 28, 2005 5:48 PM

It'll be part of the Shi'a Crescent and therefore an ally.

Posted by: oj at February 28, 2005 5:52 PM

Derek:

Big of you, since you guys oppose so much as a growl.

Posted by: oj at February 28, 2005 5:53 PM

That's right, OJ. I don't want to waste my countrymen's lives for things that do not concern this country. After all, would you murder your daughter if it meant the people in Damascus could vote? That's what going to war for democracy alone is all about.

The difference between Beirut and other Arab capitals is that in Beirut the people have some understanding of parliamentary procedure and they see democracy as an end. That's not the case in the other areas, where democracy, if it is real, is used as a means to advance either a religious or ethnic agenda at the expense of other groups, which may in fact happen here.

As for Lebanon becoming part of the "Shiite" Crescent, that's unlikeley. Shiite's, while they have a powerful military force in Hizbullah, are a fraction of Lebanon's population. More likely, Sunni radicals will have a freer hand with Syria's departure. In fact, they're probably the ones who killed Hariri in the first place.

Posted by: Derek Copold at February 28, 2005 6:04 PM

BTW, where are the kind words for Jacques Chirac? He played a large role in pressuring Assad here.

Posted by: Derek Copold at February 28, 2005 6:05 PM

Derek:

If she were in the military I'd be proud that she died liberating a people.

Posted by: oj at February 28, 2005 6:06 PM

"The similarly insistent on democracy Iraqi, Palestinian, Sa'udi or Afghan street?"

LOL. If they're so "insistent", then they should get it for themselves without having to rely on Uncle Sam. The Shiite auxillaries were so "insistent" around Fallujah that they dropped their rifles at the first sound of gunfire. The Palestinians were so "insistent" that they voted for Hamas, the great paragon of democracy. The Saudis would probably elect Bin Laden leader, and the Afghans have gone from being ruled by religious fanatics to being ruled by opium merchants. Quite a revolution you got going there.

Posted by: Derek Copold at February 28, 2005 6:10 PM

Derek:

Like DeGaulle was key in WWII.

Posted by: oj at February 28, 2005 6:12 PM

Yet they all have elective governments, even if they got them the same way France, Germany, Italy, etc. did, instead of the way the Anglosphere did.

Posted by: oj at February 28, 2005 6:13 PM

I didn't ask if she was in the military. What I asked is, if by putting a bullet in her head, you could create democracy, would you do it? We drop all sorts of lovely munitions on civilians when we "change regimes." So every time you do this in the name of All Holy Democracy, you are maiming and murdering innocents to achieve your ends.

Posted by: Derek Copold at February 28, 2005 6:14 PM

Re: Chirac. How petty, OJ. How Bushian, too.

"Yet they all have elective governments, even if they got them the same way France, Germany, Italy, etc. did, instead of the way the Anglosphere did."

Great, so we can look forward to stationing troops in these places forever, too.

Posted by: Derek Copold at February 28, 2005 6:16 PM

"I don't want to waste my countrymen's lives for things that do not concern this country."

I lost any last pretense that what happens in some far off exotic land doesn't affect me or my family a few hours after the morning of September 11, 2001.

Posted by: MB at February 28, 2005 6:17 PM

That's right, MB. You go blundering around in other peoples' affairs, and then leave the door to the country open through open-borders immigration, bad juju happens. We can probably look forward to more happening, too, as we keep finding new and unneeded enemies across the globe.

Posted by: Derek Copold at February 28, 2005 6:19 PM

Derek:

Yes.

Posted by: oj at February 28, 2005 6:19 PM

Derek:

Funny, Walid Jumblatt credited Bush, not Chirac. The French are, as they have been for almost twenty decades now, an afterthought.

Posted by: oj at February 28, 2005 6:21 PM

200 years of open borders and blundering and look where it's got us...

Posted by: oj at February 28, 2005 6:21 PM

From Walid Jumblatt:
"We are all happy when U.S. soldiers are killed [in Iraq] week in and week out. The killing of U.S. soldiers in Iraq is legitimate and obligatory."

You're in some good company there, chief.

Posted by: Derek Copold at February 28, 2005 6:24 PM

Yes, imagine how much it pained him to admit we've won? Almost as much as it's paining you.

Posted by: oj at February 28, 2005 6:28 PM

Actually, we had very closed borders between 1924 and 1965, the Golden Age of American History. That was both in law and in practice. In practice our border was fairly well closed for much of the nineteenth century as well because travel was restricted to ship and we controled entries into the country, rejected the diseased and the undesirable.

Posted by: Derek Copold at February 28, 2005 6:30 PM

Indeed. T'would be better to erect an enormous wall on our northern and southern borders, mine the coastline, forbid all int'l flights in, out, or over our airspace, and last but not least build a well stocked bombshelter in the back yard. Don't forget the spare batteries and duct tape.

Posted by: MB at February 28, 2005 6:31 PM

Considering that he used us to pressure his enemies, I don't think it pained him all that much at all. No more than it pained the Islamists to see us take down their chief secular rival in Iraq for them.

Now why don't you put aside your little onanistic daydreams of democracy and look at the reality of who it is who's going to gain in practice.

Posted by: Derek Copold at February 28, 2005 6:33 PM

MB:

And some air ducts, he seems to be getting lightheaded raving about the Golden 30s and 40s.

Posted by: oj at February 28, 2005 6:34 PM

Funny thing, we could have built a security fence along our border for a fraction of the cost of occupying Iraq, not to mention that boondoggle of prescription drug act. We could have also erected some serious security reforms when it comes into international traffic. Instead, we're cavity searching every other granny while we let thousands come over the border every day, and not all those folks are nice, little gardeners and nannies.

Posted by: Derek Copold at February 28, 2005 6:37 PM

"Actually, we had very closed borders between 1924 and 1965, the Golden Age of American History."

Golden Age??? Well perhaps if we overlook the Great Depression, WWII, the Korean war, the Cold War, racial segragation, and probably a litany of other things which don't immediately spring to mind.

Posted by: MB at February 28, 2005 6:39 PM

Lebanon matters because if some of its more radical elements were to gain control, it could become an Afghanistan-style staging area for international terrorists. Also, what we do or fail to do there will matter elsewhere, will impact on how others see us and our promises. If we leave Lebanon in the lurch, what will other nations think of our word?

The Syrian presence is today counter-productive. The Syrians protect Hezbollah and use the 'Palestinian refugees' as a janizary force to impose their will on the Lebanese. The Lebanese themselves want an end to the conflict and a 'return to normalcy', the good old days when they were the bankers for the Saudis, Beirut was the New Orleans and Las Vegas of the Arab World and the border with Israel was known as the 'Friendly Border.' The apparent end of the 'intifada' heralds an end to any legitimate claim Syria has on the region. It is only a matter of time before the so-called 'Palestinians' return or are returned to Judea, Samaria and Gaza, because an independent state is inevitable there. That will end the major demographic fly in the ointment which started the nonsense in the first place. It was Syrian treachery through its agents provocateurs among the 'Palestinians' which started much of Lebanon's debacle.

The Shia, long the downtrodden minority in Lebanon, now have a viable alternative to Iranian style loopiness, in the form of a democratic system. Even more than in Iraq, there is no way that the Shia will get everything they want, as even though they are the largest single group, they are far from a majority. However, it is inconceivable that the other groups would unite against them.

One thing they have to do is junk that Constitution which divvies up positions on the basis of religion. The various groups must be forced to work together and individuals must be encouraged to think of themselves as Lebanese first and Maronites or Sunnis or Druzes or Shia or Orthodox second. These are smart people, and anyone who has ever played Monopoly or poker against Lebanese grad students knows the place has no shortage of deal-makers.

What kind of commitment will we need to make? If the so-called 'Palestinians' are gone and the Syrians leave, not much of one. It's a small place, about the size of Delaware and the population is only a few million. If Iraq and Afghanistan, each of which is several times larger and at least 8 times as populous and exponentially less well-paved and mapped, are manageable , Lebanon is a 'cakewalk.'

Posted by: Bart at February 28, 2005 6:40 PM

Gee, OJ, I thought you'd love the 30s and 40s, since your style of thinking never seems to be able to leave them behind.

Posted by: Derek Copold at February 28, 2005 6:40 PM

"One thing they have to do is junk that Constitution which divvies up positions on the basis of religion."

Which would pretty much end the peace in Lebanon.

"If Iraq and Afghanistan, each of which is several times larger and at least 8 times as populous and exponentially less well-paved and mapped, are manageable , Lebanon is a 'cakewalk.'"

Considering that we're losing hundreds of troops a year and thousands of civilians, I'd hardly call Iraq manageable. We can get Iraqis to join the police force, but they consistently refuse to fight any serious battles. Afghanistan is relatively quiet because we bribe some ugly customers to keep it that way.

As for the Lebanese "cakewalk," I'm sure the IDF will be happy to attest to the ease with which they held their sliver of land.

Posted by: Derek Copold at February 28, 2005 6:48 PM

MB,

I guess Derek doesn't get the joke in 'Those Were the Days' from 'All in the Family.' He really could use a man like Herbert Hoover again.

The closed borders were bad for America and bad for the people who would have come here. Wouldn't America be a better place if the millions of Southern Europeans who went to Latin America came here instead? If the women of Rio Grande do Sul are any indication, there isn't even a question. And Michael Barone has estimated that if America had open borders between 1924-1939, that about 2 million Jews would have escaped the Holocaust.

But then I forget 'paleo-conservatives' miss the good old days when darkies were slaves and couldn't even look at a White woman without a whuppin' or a lynchin' or when Jews wore yellow stars and lived in fenced-in ghettos, assuming that they were allowed to live at all.

Posted by: Bart at February 28, 2005 6:49 PM

"Golden Age??? Well perhaps if we overlook the Great Depression, WWII, the Korean war, the Cold War, racial segragation, and probably a litany of other things which don't immediately spring to mind."

LOL. And all because we didn't have open borders!!

It's a Golden Age not because bad things happened, but because we continued on an upward arc despite those disasters and flaws. The very idea of Americaness was formed in that period.

Posted by: Derek Copold at February 28, 2005 6:51 PM

Treating people as individuals always works better than treating them as having some kind of 'hive mentality.' Should we start divvying up political offices in the US on the basis of religion or ethnicity? Then why should the Lebanese? Oh, I forgot, to 'paleo-conservatives', people darker than Arnold Schwarzenegger are Untermenschen, incapable of things like democracy, deal-making, negotiation.

There's a war in Iraq that is practically over. Detroit is statistically more dangerous, and the situation in Iraq is getting better not worse, which is more than we can say for Detroit.

If a few shekels keep Afghanistan peaceful and terrorist-free, that is a small price to pay. In tough places, you have to deal with tough people. Didn't you ever read Conrad? I doubt the LWV or Common Cause matter much in Afghanistan.

The IDF faced Hezbollah and was hindered from doing the really nasty things that needed doing by the American State Department. The US military and certainly the police and military of a Free Lebanon face no such restrictions.

Posted by: Bart at February 28, 2005 7:00 PM

"The closed borders were bad for America and bad for the people who would have come here. Wouldn't America be a better place if the millions of Southern Europeans who went to Latin America came here instead?"

No. The break in immigration forced ethnics here to assimilate to the host culture. It was also during this time in question that the U.S. was forced to examine policies like segregation.

"If the women of Rio Grande do Sul are any indication, there isn't even a question."

Well, I guess we know which head you're thinking with here.

"And Michael Barone has estimated that if America had open borders between 1924-1939, that about 2 million Jews would have escaped the Holocaust."

Michael Barone is full of crap. First, immigration is supposed to serve a nation's needs first, not the immigrants, so it's really rather irrelevant to the point. Also, we did take in 30% of Germany's pre-war Jews, and 72% of her pre-War Jews escaped Germany. The number would have been up a few hundred thousand, mostly Polish Jews leaving for economic reasons, perhaps, but then we would have also had to take in countless millions from other places, and when the Depression hit, all that extra labor driving down prices would have made for some real lovely race riots, worse than what we already had.

"But then I forget 'paleo-conservatives' miss the good old days when darkies were slaves and couldn't even look at a White woman without a whuppin' or a lynchin' or when Jews wore yellow stars and lived in fenced-in ghettos, assuming that they were allowed to live at all."

Sure, Bart. And they prowl the land after sunset looking for victims whose blood they can feast on. Bleh-bleh.

Opposition to excess immigration is actually founded on the idea of avoiding these kinds of ethnic divisions that create problems, not about keeping people in ghettoes. I always find this insincere concern about blacks most amusing. Because of the way illegal aliens have driven down wages, black unemployment has skyrocketed, and those working have found their wages eroding.

Posted by: Derek Copold at February 28, 2005 7:02 PM

Bart,

While I have an appreciation for history and believe that there is much wisdom to be gained from our ancestors, I wouldn't trade places with them for anything. Nostalgia is a fine way to pass the time but not to obsess over.

Posted by: MB at February 28, 2005 7:04 PM

"Treating people as individuals always works better than treating them as having some kind of 'hive mentality.'"

That's fine in theory. In practice, things work differently. In the Middle East, it's all about keeping power for your group.

"Detroit is statistically more dangerous, and the situation in Iraq is getting better not worse, which is more than we can say for Detroit."

Statistically, that is crap. Baghdad is one of the most dangerous cities in the Middle East. If you're trying to fudge it by comparing a city to the country, fine, but it's a crap comparison.

At any rate, I know Detroit is bad, but we don't car bombs going off in Detroit. You don't have kidnapping gangs working the crowds. You don't have militias terrorizing common folk, often with U.S. approval. You don't have a lack of electricity.

"If a few shekels keep Afghanistan peaceful and terrorist-free, that is a small price to pay."

And what's a little skyrocketing opium exports to that, after all?

"The IDF faced Hezbollah and was hindered from doing the really nasty things that needed doing by the American State Department."

LOL. Aha! It was the evil State Department, again! ROFL.

Posted by: Derek Copold at February 28, 2005 7:07 PM

"The IDF faced Hezbollah and was hindered from doing the really nasty things that needed doing by the American State Department."

I'll keep this in mind, Bart, next time you rant about the evils of the Devil Paleocon. I have yet to hear a paleo utter such a mendacious and loathesome statement. But, hey, I guess a little murder and mayhem is small price to pay for democracy in foreign lands. It's not like it's your butt on the line.

Posted by: Derek Copold at February 28, 2005 7:10 PM

'Forced ethnics to assimilate to the host culture'?

Immigrants desperately wanted to assimilate to the host culture and do today. It is Hispanic immigrants who object to Spanish-language instruction in the schools, it is Hispanic politicos who see their empires disappearing who oppose them, and their enablers in the nihilist Left who make sure they get the dominant air time. I work with these people every day, I drink with them, eat with them, joke around with them in Spanish and English, I've even helped some of their kids with the math homework. I know how they think. None of my grandparents spoke English as a native language and none of them needed prompting to encourage their kids to master the language, and my parents have the walls full of diplomas and academic and professional honors to prove their efforts.

Michael Barone only produces the most important biennial publication in American politics, but you say he's full of crap, so I guess that's dispostive.

America didn't re-evaluate segregation until after WWII. As James Eastland said,'Hitler took away the good name from White Supremacy.' The greatest period of racial and religious oppression in American history is from 1920-1940.

America closed its doors in 1924, the Great Depression was in 1929. While perhaps the closure didn't cause the Depression, it is fair to point out that the closure neither helped us avoid it nor eased its worst effects. Would open borders really have made things worse?

You're the guy extolling the virtues of prewar America, not me. The paleoconservatives never tire of telling us about the virtues of the antebellum South. I merely carried that to its logical conclusion.

As for my comment about the beauty of Brazilian women of mixed Eastern and Southern European ancestry who dominate the ranks of international fashion models, it was a throwaway line meant to induce a smile, laugh or chuckle. I must therefore assume that either you have no sense of humor, or perspective, or like Justine Raimondo and perhaps the childless Pat Buchanan, pitch for the other team. Since the hostility to homosexuality in Western Civilization is Old Testament-based, anti-semitism is quite commonplace among homosexuals.

Who cares about opium exports? America's drug problem is America's problem not Afghanistan's or Colombia's. I've travelled to every continent except Australia and Antarctica. I've been to Cali, Lagos and several times to Bangkok. Not once have I ever been grabbed by a group of drug dealers, tied up and forced to use drugs. If we are concerned about Afghan opium growers, punish the users and dealers here severely enough to make the risk not worth the reward.

The State Department apparat has spent almost 60 years trying to strangle the Jewish state. See Aarons and Loftus, The Secret War Against the Jews or Kaplan, The Arabists.

Posted by: Bart at February 28, 2005 7:53 PM

Derek:

A fence won't stop people who want a better life and we won't do the jobs immigrants fill.

Posted by: oj at February 28, 2005 7:54 PM

Derek:

The Shi'ites. They're democrats.

Posted by: oj at February 28, 2005 7:56 PM

Why keep an unjust peace?

Posted by: oj at February 28, 2005 7:57 PM

Derek Copold--

You are not the one to be making silly arguments about being "in good company," considering that similar arguments would put you together with Michael Moore, white supremacists, anti-Semites, and Bin Laden.

Posted by: John Thacker at February 28, 2005 8:04 PM

Derek:

What could possibly be wrong with the Israelis killing Hezbollahs? They're at war.

Posted by: oj at February 28, 2005 8:59 PM

Bart, you're right, the Gauchas are *hot*.

Posted by: Jorge Curioso at February 28, 2005 9:40 PM

OJ,

Sorry if my language got a little harsh here. But I feel about 'paleo-cons' roughly about how you feel about the French or the Old Left. It is good to be on the same basic side of the argument that you are and it is good to see the 'Paleo-Cons' and the Nihilist Left together in opposition.

Now, if we could just find a nice soccer stadium to put to its only socially valuable use?

Posted by: Bart at March 1, 2005 6:43 AM

Bart:

"Immigrants desperately wanted to assimilate to the host culture and do today. It is Hispanic immigrants who object to Spanish-language instruction in the schools, it is Hispanic politicos who see their empires disappearing who oppose them, and their enablers in the nihilist Left who make sure they get the dominant air time."

I grew up in South Texas and I still live in Houston. A lot of immigrants fit this profile; however, assimiliation is seriously impeded by the large number of reinforcements they get. You can't simply blame this all on the nihilist Left, like it's some sort of omnipresent demon. There are larger things at work. To force real assimilation, we need an immigration time out. None of these people have the incentive to speak English on a daily basis when they're being surrounded by yet more and more Spanish-speakers. "Nihilist Leftists" aren't forcing entire sections of Houston and Los Angeles to use Spanish exclusively, including private business signage. Nihilist leftist aren't forcing Hispanics to watch Galavision and Univision.

"but you say he's full of crap"

Because he is. He makes continually wrong panglossian assessments.

"America closed its doors in 1924, the Great Depression was in 1929. While perhaps the closure didn't cause the Depression, it is fair to point out that the closure neither helped us avoid it nor eased its worst effects."

It did ease the effects, unless you think having millions of more laborers added on to 25% native unemployment is a good thing.

"Who cares about opium exports?"

I leave that little bon mot out there on it's own. It needs no comment.

"See Aarons and Loftus, The Secret War Against the Jews or Kaplan..."

LOL. Are you for real? Aarons and Loftus are conspiracy kooks.


Posted by: Derek Copold at March 1, 2005 10:57 AM

John,

If Michael Moore told you the sky was blue, would you then argue that it's green?

Posted by: Derek Copold at March 1, 2005 10:59 AM

"Now, if we could just find a nice soccer stadium to put to its only socially valuable use?"

What a tolerant soul you are!

Posted by: Derek Copold at March 1, 2005 11:01 AM

"A fence won't stop people who want a better life and we won't do the jobs immigrants fill."

You're right. People who violate immigration laws and hire illegal aliens should have their businesses confiscated. That would dry up demand.

As for the immigrants, if they want a better life, let them reform their own lands, and Americans will fill those jobs if they're offered a decent wage. Employers use illegal aliens to drive down wages and circumvent basic safety and labor laws.

Posted by: Derek Copold at March 1, 2005 11:04 AM

"None of these people have the incentive to speak English on a daily basis when they're being surrounded by yet more and more Spanish-speakers."

That's true if your ambition is to be a busboy, a landscaper or a maid, and if that is your ambition for your kids. Even in Mexico, the upper middle class sends its kids to English-language schools so they can get serious degrees in serious subjects from American universities. One of the striking things about ads directed at Hispanics is how many of them are about learning English.

The immigrants know they do not benefit from a 'Spanish-speaking only' zone. The only beneficiaries are the Hispanic politicians who couldn't get elected otherwise and the people who want to undermine America, the Nihilist Left.

"Nihilist Leftists" aren't forcing entire sections of Houston and Los Angeles to use Spanish exclusively, including private business signage. Nihilist leftist aren't forcing Hispanics to watch Galavision and Univision.'

Is local government telling what language people write their signs in? If not, then it is neither yours nor my business what language those signs are written in. If you enter the store and the employees or the boss are unwilling or unable to communicate with you, take your business elsewhere. Am I supposed to get upset when I go to Chinatown and there is a small English language menu but a large Cantonese language one on the wall, from which the cognoscenti order? If meat markets in Brighton Beach post all their specials on the window in Russian, am I supposed to be put off by this? If I go to Antoine's in New Orleans and the menu is in French, am I supposed to be offended or frightened? Businessmen adjust to their market, it's just that simple. My facility with several European languages makes me more marketable than I otherwise would be. There is a premium for multi-lingual math geeks.

Nobody forces anyone to watch Galavision or Univision. I love watching Sabado Gigante, singing along with the crowd and all. It's a hoot. On my local cable system, I can get Spanish, Italian, Korean, Japanese, Chinese(Cantonese, Taiwanese and Mandarin), Russian, Hebrew, Greek and even French programs. Is that some kind of thought crime?

'He makes continually wrong panglossian assessments.'

Unlike such solons as Mr. 0.47% Buchanan, or any of the other annelids of the paleo right.

'It did ease the effects, unless you think having millions of more laborers added on to 25% native unemployment is a good thing.'

There is no reason to believe the additional work force including large skilled and artisanal populations would not have engaged in sufficient job creation to have if anything mitigated its harsher aspects. I would refer you to Julian Simon on Population and to Milton Friedman on the Great Depression, in his book Free to Choose.

'LOL. Are you for real? Aarons and Loftus are conspiracy kooks.'

People who look favorably on Antiwar.com, LewRockwell.com, the CCC, the League of the South, the soi-disant American Conservative(which is neither), Sam Francis, and Joseph Sobran should not call anyone a 'conspiracy kook' without first looking in the mirror.

'What a tolerant soul you are!'

It's called Black Humor and is based on a running gag from the Onion. It is too bad you go through life without a sense of humor or even irony. A capacity for reflection would be too much to even ask for. In the immortal words of Sgt. Hulka 'Lighten up, Francis!'


Posted by: Bart at March 1, 2005 11:57 AM

"That's true if your ambition is to be a busboy, a landscaper or a maid, and if that is your ambition for your kids."

Or lawyers, doctors, mechanics and a number of other occupations. This is what I'm trying to point out to you. You have entirely separate linguistic communities popping up. They're sustained and supported by continuing inflow.

I don't say this lightly. As I pointed out, I grew up in this are. My brother-in-law is Hispanic. But that doesn't mean I can't turn away from real problems.

"The immigrants know they do not benefit from a 'Spanish-speaking only' zone. The only beneficiaries are the Hispanic politicians who couldn't get elected otherwise and the people who want to undermine America, the Nihilist Left."

Look at your statement. It's one big contradiction. You say these immigrants "know" that they don't want Spanish-speaking only zones, but yet somehow, these ever-present Hispanic politicians keep getting elected. Who votes for them? If you want to reduce the power of these politicians, you have to reduce their constituency, or at least eliminate its growth.

"Is local government telling what language people write their signs in? If not, then it is neither yours nor my business what language those signs are written in."

It is my business because I have to pay, in taxes, for all sorts of separate Spanish services. It is my business because I'm cut-off from a large segment of my fellow citizens by linguistic differences. It is my business because elected officials are increasingly conducting business here in a foriegn language, and even campaigning in that language. They often say one thing in English and another in Spanish. The same applies to Chinese or Russian communities if they grow outsized.

"Unlike such solons as Mr. 0.47% Buchanan, or any of the other annelids of the paleo right."

Buchanan has been far more accurate in his assessments than Barone. At any rate, Steve Sailer is a better equivalent, and he's taken down Barone's stats a number of times.

"There is no reason to believe the additional work force including large skilled and artisanal populations would not have engaged in sufficient job creation to have if anything mitigated its harsher aspects."

There's plenty of reason to believe it would: namely, that the "skilled and artisanal [sic] populations" in the U.S. couldn't find work. The only thing having more here would have done is drive up unemployment and drive down already too low wages.

"People who look favorably on Antiwar.com, LewRockwell.com, the CCC, the League of the South, the soi-disant American Conservative(which is neither), Sam Francis, and Joseph Sobran should not call anyone a 'conspiracy kook' without first looking in the mirror."

In Aaron and Loftus' case, I'm on safe ground considering them kooks. Also, I don't identify with all those groups or their views.

"It's called Black Humor and is based on a running gag from the Onion. It is too bad you go through life without a sense of humor or even irony. A capacity for reflection would be too much to even ask for. In the immortal words of Sgt. Hulka 'Lighten up, Francis!'"

Please, you're one of the most humorless, thin-skinned individuals I've ever talked to on the web, and that's saying quite a bit. You're really in no position to preach about the virtues of "reflection."

At any rate, I got the joke. In fact, I was being facetious myself, O great model of light-hearted reflection. However, considering how quickly you throw out very personal and vicious attacks, one can't help but feel that you do, in fact, long for that soccer stadium.

Posted by: at March 1, 2005 12:46 PM

Derek:

Who's going to write it, Tom "I didn't know the carpenters were illegals" Tancredo? Nothing will kill nativism faster than making the ofays pay full price for the work they want done.

Posted by: oj at March 1, 2005 1:51 PM

Derek:

You'd at least run some tests to make sure it is blue.

Posted by: oj at March 1, 2005 1:52 PM

Is that the best you can come up with against Tancredo? Our business culture has become so corrupt that all contractors use illegals. Tancredo could hardly check them all.

Yes, a lot of people are dependent on exploiting illegals, and that's what it is. They pay them crap wages, get around labor and safety laws and drive down wages for natives. A lot of meatpacking plants in the South used to employ blacks at a good wage. Now they've replaced them all with illegals who work for half the wage. If that's progress, sign me up for regress.

Dependency is no argument for continuing the status quo. We sure wouldn't or shouldn't accept it when it comes to a similar dependency, like oil.

As for Michael Moore, I didn't cite him approvingly. You did cite Jumblatt as your authority, which tells me how blind you are to the critical details involved in this situation. You could stand a little testing of your own.

Posted by: Derek Copold at March 1, 2005 2:10 PM

We don't accept oil dependency? Is there any oxygen reaching the bunker?

Jumblatt:

http://www.meib.org/articles/0105_ld1.htm

When was Michael Moore ever on the winning side of hiostory?

Posted by: oj at March 1, 2005 2:13 PM

Ha, ha. I mean accept it as permanent.

Posted by: Derek Copold at March 1, 2005 4:09 PM

Derek:

We're more dependent than we were when they brought us to our knees in the early 70s.

Posted by: oj at March 1, 2005 4:35 PM

1. You can't become a lawyer, doctor, CPA, plumber or any other certified professional or licensed artisan without English language proficiency. Each requires an examination in English. If they can speak other languages, it simply helps them get more clients.

2. Hispanic voters elect Hispanic politicians because of the language issue primarily. When White candidates make an effort to speak Spanish, they find their message resonates. In fact, the GOP has been making a serious push for Spanish-speaking candidates. This is no different from the days of Fiorello LaGuardia who learned Yiddish and Polish so he could campaing successfully on the Lower East Side. A Hispanic politician wants to hinder integration because it gives him voters who don't know or are afraid to try anything different. Once they learn English, they start voting for Bush or any of a vast panoply of non-Hispanic candidates.

3. The decision to offer government services in a language other than English is 100% wrong, with the exception of criminal matters where we should provide interpreters in the interest of justice. Elected officials, like the rest of us, have the right to 'conduct business' in whatever language they feel most comfortable. You would be hard pressed to find a city in the US where the council conducts its business in a language other than English. There was some goofy colonia in Texas that tried to but the council were booted out by the overwhelmingly Hispanic citizenry and the rule overturned. As far as politicians saying one thing to one audience and a different thing to another, that is a real innovation isn't it?(sarcasm intended) It is the responsibility of the media and the candidate's opponent to point out these discrepancies.

4. Buchanan hasn't been right yet. All that howling about the Arab street? His Presidential campaign? He honestly believed he had a message that could resonate with voters. (Or else he was just looking to scam the Feds out of election money)As I've said before, if the FEC gave my dog $15 million he'd do better than 0.47% of the vote. Sailer isn't a total idiot but comparing him to Barone I'm reminded of the time I played a former USCF champion, Pal Benko, to a draw in the US Team Championship, when I was in high school. Sure, there are probably times when Sailer is right and Barone has been wrong, but Barone is the guy with the multi-million dollar book contract and the editorship at US News under Mort Zuckerman and Sailer is doing what precisely? It is the difference between a professional chess player and a weekend warrior.

5. Simon and Friedman have proved to be right on the economic impact of immigration over the last 3 decades or so. There is no reason to think they would be wrong about the Depression. Unskilled labor was the big loser in the Depression, neither grandfather of mine, one a contractor and the other a baker had any serious issues,or faced any period of unemployment although there was certainly plenty of misery to be seen. My guess is that skilled artisans would have been the basis of a recovery, much the same way we rely on the middle classes of the Third World to provide stability. The import of people from trading cultures would probably have been a positive too.

6. As for that soccer stadium, I'm with Oliver Wendell Holmes and Abraham Lincoln. The Constitution is not a suicide pact. If at some point, the extremes become so loopy that they start encouraging violence against ordinary folks and the State, we should not shrink from doing what the great Generalissimo Pinochet did in Chile.

Posted by: Bart at March 1, 2005 5:02 PM
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