Remember the earlier dark days of the Cold War, when the sneer of choice for the capitulators was to talk about "Godless, atheistic Communists" as if such a thing were possible, or if possible of any consequence?

How wonderful it is to have such opponents...

The opponents seem determined to do every contoversial thing possible thus convincing otherwise ambivilent parents to be "pro" vouchers. Bring 'em on.

I'd say the problem isn't secularism as such, but this bizarre, extreme view of secularism. It's one thing to say public school teachers can't proselytize in class. Traditional (shall we say) secularism like that is AOK with me. But the idea that secularism means the writings of the Founders cannot be studied because they mention God is obviously absurd.

ambivalent that was. (I'm nowhere without my F7 key which doesn't work in here?)

"Among the materials she has rejected, according to Williams, are excerpts from the Declaration of Independence, George Washington's journal, John Adams' diary, Samuel Adams' "The Rights of the Colonists" and William Penn's "The Frame of Government of Pennsylvania."

Somedays, Satan slips up and hands us a gift.

The list in Peter's post would indicate that this teacher was attempting to provoke and challenge the secular order of modern education. The premise he was trying to convey to the students was that America was a "Christian" nation at its founding.

Of course they had to discipline him.

Good for the school!

Resist the coming theocritization of America!

There will come a day in this country when one will need to be a Christian to hold a government job, or to run for elected office. There will come a day when children will be forced to swear allegiance to the Christian god. This is the goal of Mullah Dobson and his ilk.

Ever see the Handmaid's Tale? That's where we are heading.

The Handmaid's Tale? Please be serious.

mk -

Two centuries+ of proselytizing indoctrination seem to have moved us only farther away from being a theocracy. God ought to be firing his marketing manager. Reach out for the valium man.

Actually, Mullah MKultra, you would be perfectly happy to ban Christians from government jobs, aren't you? And in this case, academic freedom didn't mean [squat], did it?

You're just another Gramsci acolyte.

m:

Resist it? The point is we've always had it.

Handmaid is, of course, a liberal not a conservative dystopia:

http://www.brothersjudd.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/reviews.detail/book_id/750/

Utopia and dystopia are synonyms, not antonyms.

This is obviously absurd, so obviously this teacher is engaged in outreach. I was getting my weekly dose of religion one Sunday morning and the preacher didn't thump the Bible once. It was all about the US government. Something about God = Christianity, Creator = Christianity, and any other generic reference = Christianity. Basically, the US government = Christianity. Alternately: secularism = anti-Americanism. And now this teacher calls in to one of these Sunday morning shows to order the DVD and booklet and gets the bright idea to distribute this material in class. You people have to be pretty dense to accept at face value the formulation presented in the article which no doubt was supplied to Reuters in the form of a press release from the Alliance Defense Fund, or not to recognize the totalitarian doublespeak implicit in the title of this blog post -- stooge or otherwise.

You people have to be pretty dense . . .

There's some good, persuasive rhetoric if ever I heard it. Yeah, that'll preach!

Somedays, Satan slips up and hands you a gift.

PapayaSF: "But the idea that secularism means the writings of the Founders cannot be studied because they mention God is obviously absurd."

As a liberal atheist, I have to say I'm with PapayaSF on this one.

Noel: "Utopia and dystopia are synonyms, not antonyms."

Erm, no. From Merriam-Webster:

utopia:
1 : an imaginary and indefinitely remote place
2 often capitalized : a place of ideal perfection especially in laws, government, and social conditions
3 : an impractical scheme for social improvement

dystopia:
1 : an imaginary place where people lead dehumanized and often fearful lives
2 : ANTI-UTOPIA

Brian: "And in this case, academic freedom didn't mean [squat], did it?"

Does academic freedom really apply in a fifth grade history class? Don't they have a set curriculum etc.?

As used by the modern Left, the term "academic freedom" means the power to impose transgressive, radical political views (and transgressive content, such as explicit pornography) over the objections of students and parents, and the corollary power to suppress those objections. It naturally follows from this that Christians, observant Jews, and anyone else who does not hold with the Left's program cannot, by definition, invoke "academic freedom."

This is one reason why my children do not attend public schools.

William of D said, "You people have to be pretty dense..."

Good thing the constitution didn't start off with, "You the people!", it may have been considered offensive.

An acquaintance of mine from Winnipeg wrote an opera with Margaret Atwood, and she is apparently a really nice lady. Hard to gather from her books, though.

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."

Egads!

creeper--

Hey, I'm an atheist myself--mkultra just said that teachers should lie in order to resist "theocratization." If the set curriculum means that teachers can't allow children to see the Declaration, I would say there's a problem with the curriculum. Let's just say that if this teacher was handing out condoms, Commissar mkultra would be the first to defend it.

This just gets crazier and crazier. Is there nobody pulling these goobers aside and saying 'WHAT ARE YOU? TOTALLY F***ING INSANE!!!!!'

Somebody made this decision. The 'school' didn't make the decision, it's just a bloody building. You need to identify who was the person who made the conscious choice to bar the DOI from an American school. Then you need to pressure the school board to can his spotty fat butt on the spot. Or else, get a new school board.

And then when you meet school administrators they wonder why millions of American parents opt for private, religious or home-based education.

Wm

You secular biblical literalists are so unimaginative.

creeper:

Because Man is Fallen what he reasons will be Utopia is always a Dystopia instead.

Wm:

Ever read the Declaration and the Constitution? They establish religion as the basis of the Republic.

The American historical consensus regarding God as the final authority or the power of the state as the embodiment of the "general will". Make your choice. If I were a totally self-interested employee of the U.S. Department of Education, I'd probably pick the state as well, even at the expense of the truth.

Brian,

"If the set curriculum means that teachers can't allow children to see the Declaration, I would say there's a problem with the curriculum."

Very much so. I'm going to take a stab in the dark here - the principal is most likely being overzealous. I seriously doubt the set curriculum is meant to censor the Declaration of Independence.

But then again, I don't know enough of the facts re. this situation to be sure. It's certainly possible that this teacher has injected too much of her personal beliefs into her teaching in the past, and that the principal is (over-)reacting to this.

I'm an atheist, and I do believe in the separation of church and state, but I also believe that such things can be taken too far. Religion is a part of life and definitely has its place in, for example, history class, as is the case here. To try to whitewash history of mentions of religious elements is just plain silly.

Orrin,

"Because Man is Fallen what he reasons will be Utopia is always a Dystopia instead."

As a theological argument this may well hold water - and frankly, I'm just going to take your word for it, since I'm pretty sure you know much more about that than I – but it doesn't really make the two terms synonymous, especially when they are clearly defined as antonyms.

If one accepted, for example, Sartre's dictum "Hell is other people", it still doesn't serve as a definition as such of either 'hell' or 'other people'.

creeper:

irespective or personal belief the idea of such seperation is inconsistent with the Founding and American History until well into the 209th Century--you can't teach history without lying if you forbid mention of the role of Judeo-Christianity.

creeper:

To an existentialist hell and life are synonyms.

In the real world utopia and dystopia are synonymous.

Orrin,

"you can't teach history without lying if you forbid mention of the role of Judeo-Christianity"

Agreed - as I also said in an earlier post.

"To an existentialist hell and life are synonyms.

In the real world utopia and dystopia are synonymous."

We don't seem to be able to agree on terms of debate on this (is a 'real world' one that disregards the plain meaning of words and their definitions?), so I'm just going to let this one rest.

I suspect there is some backstory here. The tone of the article implied the teacher had been proselytizing in the past, and was operating under restrictions other teachers were not.

It is also worth noting that most legal actions against religion in school are sectarian.

Hey, it's your sect.

OJ:

Judaism is not my sect. Jewish parents initiate a great many legal actions against religion in school.

Hmmm. I wonder why.

No they don't the ACLU does.

Yes they do, via the ACLU.

Jeff:

Precisely.

" Jewish parents initiate a great many legal actions against religion in school."

Words are a valuable addition to sentence meaning. "Initiate" is one example.

Would you be happier if the ADL initiated legal action? Hmmm...I'll bet they do.

Jeff:

Your precise point, that such suits are usually sectarian, is simply false. They're driven by the ACLU which is anti-religious.

I don't care whether the ACLU drives them, the instigators are far more often sectarian then secular.

The latest local brouhaha involved Muslim calls to prayer.

You couldn't find a materialist amidst the crowd of mightily offended religionists.

Yes, but the ACLU is your sect.