The EU commissars' stunt in trying to legislate Christianity out of the history and culture of Europe is something reminiscent of the old Soviet Union, and is just as doomed to failure.

It is unnecessary and unwise.

Bart, how do you reconcile religion with your rather utilitarian views on the value of human life ?

The last time Europe recognized itself as a purely Christian place wasn't a very successful era for them. Their civilization was founded by pagans in Greece and Rome, so why should Christianity get top billing?

The EU could take some cues from our preamble--its brevity, and due to its silence on the issue, its inability to enervate religion, is a singularly brilliant combination.

Robert:

You mean the thousand years during which they rose to global dominance and produced Western Civilization? Before they switched to secular rationalism and tore themselves apart in the 20th Century?

Michael,

I'm not religious, but that doesn't mean that other people aren't, that their decision to be religious isn't rational and that it isn't entitled to respect. Also, anyone who knows anything about Western civilization understands that its main roots are the Roman-Hellenic civilization and the Bible. If you deny the importance of Christianity in European history, you then have a great deal of trouble understanding what the deal is with all those big buildings, fancy statues and paintings.

No, I mean the time they tore themselves apart over religious squabbles, 1517 to 1648.

Yes, that's part of the time span over which they became great nations and produced most of the culture for which they'll be recalled. There have been no significant new ideas since the 17th century.

Michael:

Not "purely" Christian. Europe always had its pagans. But to deny Christianity's significant role in European history, including the role of Christianity in democratization, anti-slavery, anti-serfdom and women's equality movements, is to lie.

Robert, how were the 100 Years War, and the Reformation, and Napoleon's campaigns, and the two World Wars different?

They were devastating political arguments, not religious. And the only way people will begin to understand this point is to understand how kings got their authority from the Church at the time.

Of course you were "unwanted" if you weren't a Catholic in France, or an Anglican in England; but that was because of acts like Elizabeth's "act for retaining the Queen Majesty's subjects in their due obedience". She was an illegitimate ruler unless she got rid of the Catholics.

The free cities like Danzig and Geneva profited quite handsomely from the importation of those "unwanted".

Remember, Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight..."

Randall, this just points out the futility of trying to establish Europe as a Christian entity. If Christianity is put forth as the source of legitimacy, then politics will usurp it. Politics will always do that. In 1648 the kings of Europe gave up on the idea of a Christian Europe, it was every King for himself, for whatever religion he chose to impose. It was unworkable.

So what would be the effect of putting a Christianity clause in the EU constitution? Why contaminate religion with politics again?

"Why contaminate religion with politics again?"

Exactly. To which one might add the envervation of state established churches in Europe.

Robert:

The same reason we have it, as a limitation on men.

Religion can't limit men's worst behavior if it is invested in the institution that brings out the worst, government. It is like expecting an honest audit from an accountant who is on the board of directors. Conflict of interest.
Jesus said his kingdom is not of this world, but you guys still try to make this world's kingdoms into Jesus's kingdom, with disastrous results mostly.

Robert:

Government brings out the worst in human behavior? That's just bizarre.

Sure it does. Government confers power, which corrupts.

You imagine a world with no government would be one in which power matters less?

The government that governs least, also corrupts the least.

Government doesn't corrupt, power does. Government, properly constructed, limits the power of men over other men. Absent government there are no limits.

God is "pro-government" in that God favors government over anarchy. Government is a gift from God for the ordering of society. Government is designed to foster the success of the society and the wellbeing of its citizens and to restrain the forces which seek to unleash anarchy upon society and corrupt its citizens. It's sad that the EU constitution would overtly cut out all reference to the foundation of its society and the roots of its common understanding of law and order. Including references to God in the EU constitution would't make the EU a Christian, or even religious, entity. Excluding references to God in the EU constitution would, however, be a repudiation of the truth, which is that government (not necessarily those who govern) gets its legitimacy from God, who gave it as a gift.

Robert:
The underlying problem isn't that the accountant doing the audit is on my company's board of directors, though that is a conflict of interest, it's that the accountant has been bought by the competition and promised wonderful things if he will only sabotage the audit.