America is the world's oldest democracy, and we seem to be doing just fine. If Europe can't get it right, the problem should be interpreted as user error.

And here's yet another article where "secular" has apparently morphed into "No God Allowed."

brian:

Yes, we aren't secular and neither is our system--thus our Republic works.

Our constitution, and government, fill the definition of the term "secular" pretty darn well.

I'll bet just over 50% of Americans would vast prefer secular democracy to undemocratic Islam.

You may even know some of them.

Women.

Women got rights because they were endowed by their Creator.

The Acton Institute for the Study of Religion and Liberty is the most insoucient manifestation of Catholic humor that I know. For a Catholic cardinal to speak of democracy to the Acton Institute, considering how little liberty Acton was accorded, is about a slimy as you can get.

Islam and demcracy are incompatible, and Catholicism and liberty are incompatible.

Harry:

He had liberty. He choose differently than you would have, which speaks as well of him as it does poorly of you.

OJ:

Maybe your Creator gave women rights, although famously denied until secularism carried out your Creator's wishes.

But undemocratic Islam's Creator sure as heck didn't.

Sounds like your Big Spook and their Big Spook need to get together and decide which Real Truth is the Actual Real Truth.

A Catholic clergyman talking about democracy is like a Soviet apparatchik talking about free market economics.

Bart:

Your hatred of Catholics does not make them undemocratic. No one who's ever lived has done more for democracy than the Pope.

Jeff:

Ours, that's why we're Reforming Islam.

Jeff:
I'll accept your apology for your "big spook" comment now. It was not helpful to the discussion.

Bart:
The Catholic church may have a monarchial hierarchy, but it's not a communist one. I'm not Catholic, and I would not do well as either a priest or layperson, in big part because of the institutional structure, but to imply that the Catholic church's structure and its workings are communist is inaccurate. The RC is, in non-religious terms, a monarchy and the Pope is the reigning monarch, one with very real power.

DW:

You are quite right. It wasn't helpful, and I could have expressed myself far more constructively.

Like Islam, the Catholic Church is a totalitarian entity incompatible with democratic systems. History has shown that given its druthers it will dictate who should rule states, what type of economy they will have, who will rule in faraway places where the Church does not even exist. There is nothing democratic about it, it is a feudal vestige, nothing less than an cancer on Western Civilization. It is a perversion of faith, an exploiter of the ignorance, the hatred and the envy of the masses.

Bart:

That's inane. It specifically mitigates against totalitarianism and there has never been a nation ruled by the Church.

The Papal States?

The Spanish Empire under Isabella and Philip II?

France at the time of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre or the revocation of the Edict of Nantes?

Msgr. Tizo's Slovakia during WWII?

The Teutonic Knights' domains in Eastern Europe?

In all of these places, the Church ran things directly or dictated virtually all policy and in all of these places there was no economy other than a feudal or command-based one, there was no political freedom, no free scientific inquiry, there was plenty of racism and plenty of violence against non-believers whether Native American pagans, Jews, Orthodox Christians or Protestants.

It's a dreary record.

"Big Spook" has been a commonplace of BrothersJudd rhetoric for years now, and I for one would miss Him if He was gone. As terminology, it fits nicely into Jeff's relativist position (although he eschews relativism in every other circumstance) that no one vision of the Big Spook can be True because other people have other visions. On the other hand, it also fits nicely with my position that there is an Absolute Truth and that various names and description used by men and women can't effect that Truth. G-d is G-d, and G-d is one, even if we call him the Big Spook.

Bart:

Ferdinand and Isabella were monarchs, not priests, etc. President Bush governs according to catholic principles, doesn't make us a totalitarian state.

Islamicism, as it currently manifests itself in the world, is indeed a dark alternative to democracy. It is not "vastly preferable to secular democracy."

This article prompts me to ask myself, "what am I on this earth for?" and "where can I find what I want in this life?"

These are tough questions to grapple with. They require reason, logic, and faith.

Islamicism isn't Islam.

Big Spook is my trope, and I introduced it exactly in the spirit in which David takes it.

Orrin misapprehends the illiberality of the Church in its suppression of Acton. It was not Acton that was suppressed but the concept of liberty.

Acton had no power to declare doctrine, all he wanted to do was discuss it.

The pope, who did have the power, acted tyrannically, as, of course, a pope must.

Harry:

He could have discussed it or he could choose to submit. The latter course was more noble.

Well, he was a minor noble.

But a great man.

For the Catholic Church to lead the non-Islamic world in overcoming the darkness which modern Islam seeks to impose on the world, it will need to reform its own institution. The church needs to better understand why it exists and for whom. It then needs to ask how to best organize itself in order to be a transforming, hope and wholeness offering organization.

Submitting to tyranny noble?

I didn't know Judd was an alternative spelling for Quisling.

Submission to God is required of all decent men.

Hard to see much worthwhile in an institution that suppresses its great men.

If you are a Catholic then work to change the institution. Open your eyes and look for what is worthwhile in it.

Harry:

The greatness of human institutions lies in the suppression of men, thereby making them more fully human.

"If you are a Catholic then work to change the institution."

Dave, Catholics don't have the perogative to change the institution, only to submit to it.

"Submission to God is required of all decent men."
If God exists, then I would agree with you. But we're not talking about God, we're talking about the Catholic church.

Robert:

It doesn't matter whether God exists. Submission to His word, as articulated by an authority, not yourself, is required for decency.

The Catholic Church is not God.

"Submission to His word, as articulated by an authority, not yourself, is required for decency."

That is the most succinct articulation of the Good German defense I have yet heard.

Yes, except that Nazism wasn't decent. Germans were obligated to God but followed Reason instead.

Dave, that's what Acton was doing. Furthermore, he was right and Pius was wrong on the facts.

The Church cannot stand if it has to admit facts, honor and argument. It is fundamentally antihuman and incompatible with democracy.

OJ:

Your distinction is meaningless, as it would require questioning the very authority to which you insist upon submission.

Mindless submission is anti-human.

Jeff:

The distinction between God and Applied Darwinism has the utmost meaning.