October 11, 2004

THE ALLIES SENATOR KERRY DERIDES:

Poland Emerges as Leading NATO Nation (John D. Banusiewicz, 10/11/04, NY Jewish Times)

Though it's among NATO's newest members, Poland already has emerged as one of the alliance's leading nations, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz said in remarks at Warsaw University.

Poland has "quickly moved from being a new member of NATO to being an important NATO leader, a tribute to the courage and commitment that we Americans have long admired about our Polish friends," said Wolfowitz.

The Polish people have fought bravely for freedom – their own and that of others, Wolfowitz said. He cited important contributions made by two Polish generals – Tadeusz Kosciuszko and Casimir Pulaski -- in America's fight for independence.

From 1778 to 1780, Kosciuszko designed and oversaw the fortification of West Point, the defense George Washington termed as the key to the American Revolution.

Pulaski died from wounds suffered in the Battle of Savannah in 1779. "Two years before his death," Wolfowitz said, "Pulaski told Benjamin Franklin, 'We Poles have a hatred for all forms of tyranny, especially foreign tyranny. So no matter where in this world someone is fighting for freedom, we feel it is a personal matter to us as well.'"

Wolfowitz praised the performance of Polish forces in World War II, most notably in the Battle of Britain and at Monte Casino in Italy. He also noted the Polish people's successful resistance against Nazi occupation and Soviet repression.

"Today Poles are free, and now, just as in the early days of my country, brave Americans and Poles are once again working and fighting side by side to bring freedom to nations where liberty has long been held captive," Wolfowitz said.


They're better allies to us than we deserve, given how we stabbed them in the back in 1945.

Posted by Orrin Judd at October 11, 2004 2:27 PM
Comments

Also a brigade of Polish soldiers, also fought for Napoleon in the early years of the Haitian Republic, as Napoleon was trying to reconquer Haiti.

They were slaughtered. The Poles I mean.

Posted by: h-man at October 11, 2004 3:17 PM

The Poles really screwed themselves after WWII. The two factions were the fascists in London and the Communists who were in Lublin. There was no nascent democracy yearning to breathe free.

Posted by: Bart at October 11, 2004 6:14 PM

Bart:

That is the British, American Communist and New Deal slur on the Poles that no informed person believes anymore. It's just to make you feel better about your country screwing them.

Posted by: oj at October 11, 2004 7:35 PM

OJ,

Now, that's just utter nonsense. The London Poles were made up of the same bunch of Catholic Fascists who passed laws similar to the Nuremburg Decrees only months after the Nazis did. Their forces in Poland were well known for murdering Jews or turning them into the Nazis for cash. They were complete scum.

Posted by: Bart at October 11, 2004 7:45 PM

Yup, that's the party line.

Posted by: oj at October 11, 2004 7:57 PM

Party Line?

That's history. If you can't accept it, that is your problem. There is plenty of literature on the matter of the London Poles and I have met people who survived the Holocaust in Poland because they joined the Partizans, who unlike the group supported from London, didn't murder Jews.

One readily available source is David Vital's A People Apart, A Political History of the Jews in Europe 1789-1939. He discusses prewar Poland in pp 755-800. Dr. Vital is the former Nahum Goldmann Professor of Diplomacy at Tel Aviv University, so I guess he's just another Commie or fellow traveller.

Posted by: Bart at October 11, 2004 8:10 PM

Bart:

No, a Zionist who has to demonize Poland.

Posted by: oj at October 11, 2004 8:28 PM

Why does anyone have to 'demonize' Poland? They and Israel have very close relations. The Jewish community of Poland is almost non-existent which is fine with both Poles and Jews. There is a group of Israeli and American Jews in Poland transacting trade but that's about it.

The record of the Polish government after the death of Pilsudski speaks for itself and needs no 'demonization.' It was quite demonic on its own. The immediate postwar period was characterized by London Pole-led attacks on Jews, including most famously in Jedwabne and Bialystok. My cousin Staci's in-laws survived the one in Bialystok, where they were living while trying to make their way into what was then the British Mandate in 'Palestine.'

Posted by: Bart at October 11, 2004 8:34 PM

Democrats and Brits have to because they handed our invaluable allies over to Stalin. Zionists have to in order to make the state of Israel a necessity.

Posted by: oj at October 11, 2004 9:50 PM

The Poles hate themselves so much that Poland already has negative population growth.
Only Russia and Scotland are shrinking faster.

The Poles know themselves better than any American does; if they think their culture unworthy of survival, why dispute it ?

Posted by: Michael Herdegen at October 12, 2004 7:35 AM

Michael:

yes, we did them terrible damage when we left them to Communist predation for fifty years after they saved Britain in WWII. It seems unlikely they, or anyone else, can ever recover from two generations of Statism.

Posted by: oj at October 12, 2004 8:37 AM

OJ, you have so much compassion for the declining population of Poland, why not show compassion for the declining population of the Japanese. We dropped two dang Atom Bombs on them.

Posted by: h-man at October 12, 2004 9:35 AM

Yes, then rebuilt them and gave them Western political and economic institutions--though we should also have Christianized them--tremendous advantages that the Poles had to wait fifty years for. I have compassion for all the dying peoples of the secular West, just not much patience.

Posted by: oj at October 12, 2004 9:42 AM

The numbers I have readily at hand indicate that Poland's population is increasing at .05% not counting net immigration.

OJ, the Japanese have two religious traditions, Shinto and Zen Buddhism, which serve them quite well. They do not need to be Christianized, in any manner other than the kind of peaceful, friendly, earnest missionaries one meets in America.

Posted by: Bart at October 12, 2004 11:31 AM

Bart:

Yes, exactly. McArthur should have brought in missionaries and mission schools. Their lack of Judeo-Christianity made the effort to reform and save their nation ultimately futile.

Posted by: oj at October 12, 2004 11:48 AM

While I believe Japan should be open to other people's cultures and faiths, I do not see their nation as in any way doomed to failure should the vast majority of Japanese not adopt Christianity as their faith. South Korea today is majority Christian and Koreans are still loud, arrogant racists for the most part.

Posted by: Bart at October 12, 2004 11:58 AM

What, precisely, did the Poles save Britain from?

Posted by: Harry Eagar at October 12, 2004 12:44 PM

Evangelicals have been trying to get churches to flourish in Japan for some time, but it has proven singularly difficult to make inroads there (evangelicals would add, "yet").

Posted by: judd at October 12, 2004 1:26 PM

Harry:

The Nazis

Posted by: oj at October 12, 2004 1:43 PM

Bart:

No, it's not, that's why it's dying too.

Posted by: oj at October 12, 2004 1:57 PM

Here goes. Polish courage saved not only England, but the world, from the Nazis. All you need do is look at weapons development to see that the Germans would have been unbeatable if they had been allowed, as they had hoped and planned, 4 or 5 more years to prepare for general war.

Battleships of the highest quality, aircraft carriers, advanced submarines, jet aircraft, modern small-arms, the best heavy and medium tanks in the world, air defense and anti-ship guided missles--the list goes on and on. The Germans did not merely dream of these things: except for the ships, they had them before the war's end. By then it was far too late, as they had been drawn into premature war while their weapons and logistics were at a 1930's level.

Poland's defiance of the Germans makes no sense in terms of short-term, particular national interest, as A.J.P. Taylor points out in his Origens of The Second World War. It makes sublime sense as a sacrificial act of the Christ among nations,

Posted by: Lou Gots at October 12, 2004 2:09 PM

Lou:

Of even greater significance it was they who revealed Enigma and stole the machines--without which Britain's position would have been far more precarious (though it's impossible to imagine a suuccessful reverse Normandy). They also provided many of the best pilots in the Battle of Britain--Czechs too.

Posted by: oj at October 12, 2004 2:20 PM

Lou:

"drawn into"?

Posted by: Eugene S. at October 12, 2004 2:54 PM

Yes, drawn into. Taylor's book is very clear about this, for all that he thinks the Poles were deluded incompetents. Germany had every reason to expect that its demands with respect tho the corridor and the Volksdeutsch would be met, as they had been with respect to Czechoslovakia. I suggest that the Poles knew exactly what they were doing by resisting the Germans, i.e. getting into a war they could not possibly win, but which would lead to the eventual defeat the invader.

Posted by: Lou Gots at October 12, 2004 3:07 PM

oj:

The Brits didn't need the Americans for victory, but did need the Poles ?
Why don't the US have recruiters in Poland right now, begging some of these supermen to come to the US and improve our genetic stock ?

Bart:

Poland's net migration is negative, which leads to their population decline.

Lou Gots:

If that was indeed their plan, then I submit that the Poles were fools and idiots.

Posted by: Michael Herdegen at October 12, 2004 5:15 PM

Michael:

They'd won by the time we got in the war--they were safe from invasion. We have an enormous number of Poles here, don't we? And we always go get their help in wartime.

Posted by: oj at October 12, 2004 5:29 PM

Yes, one recalls with deep emotion how the Poles, realizing that if they stood by while their neighbors were attacked by totalitarian regimes, went to the aid of the brave Finns and also the Czechs.


Britain had captured an Enigma on its own by 1941, so if the Poles had not contributed theirs, it would not have mattered.

Posted by: Harry Eagar at October 12, 2004 9:38 PM

Harry:

The Finns? Didn't they fight the Russians to basically a draw AFTER September 1939? Until sheer numbers (and the coming of spring) did them in?

As for the Czechs, no one was going to fight for them. Chamberlain proved that quite conclusively.

Posted by: jim hamlen at October 12, 2004 11:15 PM

They went and got another once the Poles explained why they'd need them. '41 would have been a bit late to start figuring out the codes anyway, since the Battle was in 1940.

Posted by: oj at October 12, 2004 11:43 PM

Michael H: Yes fools, and idiots. As I commented supra, Taylor's book characterizes them as such, almost in those words. My point was that if they had not been such fools and idiots we would have faced a 1945 Germany possessed of 1960's weapons. Did I forget to mention the German plans for ICBM's and stealth bombers?

Posted by: Lou Gots at October 13, 2004 7:47 AM

Without taking anything away from the tremendous technological achievements of the Germans, 1938 Germany wasn't going to be making any ICBMs.

Posted by: Michael Herdegen at October 13, 2004 9:53 AM

Nor 1945-without-a-war Germany.

Posted by: Michael Herdegen at October 13, 2004 9:55 AM

And wasn't close to the Bomb in '45

Posted by: oj at October 13, 2004 10:00 AM

Jim, the Poles didn't just sit on the their hands while Hitler raped Czechoslovakia. They rushed in to carve off a slice themselves (Teschen).

That helps account for the 'fools and idiots' assessment.

The Finns fought off the Soviets for a while, with the Poles indifferent.

Britain and France then guaranteed Poland, not because anybody thought Poland worth preserving, but in self-defense.

Enigma had no impact on the Battle of Britain in 1940, and in fact no impact anywhere except in the Battle of the Atlantic, which did not begin in earnest until 1941.

The Royal Navy almost immediately captured a German U-boat and captured a complete Enigma machine and codes.

The Polish input turned out to be irrelevant.

After August 1945, when even Stalin seemed to have had enough of indiscriminate killing, the Poles were hunting down what few Jews had managed to escape the Germans.

A disgusting, disgraceful people.

Posted by: Harry Eagar at October 13, 2004 4:35 PM
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