October 12, 2004

SO, THE LEFT WANTS JUDGES WHO AGREE WITH JUSTICE TANEY?

Speech on the Dred Scott Decision (Abraham Lincoln, 6/26/1857)

And now as to the Dred Scott decision. That decision declares two propositions—first, that a negro cannot sue in the U.S. Courts; and secondly, that Congress cannot prohibit slavery in the Territories. It was made by a divided court—dividing differently on the different points. Judge Douglas does not discuss the merits of the decision; and, in that respect, I shall follow his example, believing I could no more improve on McLean and Curtis, than he could on Taney.

He denounces all who question the correctness of that decision, as offering violent resistance to it. But who resists it? Who has, in spite of the decision, declared Dred Scott free, and resisted the authority of his master over him?

Judicial decisions have two uses—first, to absolutely determine the case decided, and secondly, to indicate to the public how other similar cases will be decided when they arise. For the latter use, they are called "precedents" and "authorities."

We believe, as much as Judge Douglas, (perhaps more) in obedience to, and respect for the judicial department of government. We think its decisions on Constitutional questions, when fully settled, should control, not only the particular cases decided, but the general policy of the country, subject to be disturbed only by amendments of the Constitution as provided in that instrument itself. More than this would be revolution. But we think the Dred Scott decision is erroneous. We know the court that made it, has often over-ruled its own decisions, and we shall do what we can to have it to over-rule this. We offer no resistance to it.

Judicial decisions are of greater or less authority as precedents, according to circumstances. That this should be so, accords both with common sense, and the customary understanding of the legal profession.

If this important decision had been made by the unanimous concurrence of the judges, and without any apparent partisan bias, and in accordance with legal public expectation, and with the steady practice of the departments throughout our history, and had been in no part, based on assumed historical facts which are not really true; or, if wanting in some of these, it had been before the court more than once, and had there been affirmed and re-affirmed through a course of years, it then might be, perhaps would be, factious, nay, even revolutionary, to not acquiesce in it as a precedent.

But when, as it is true we find it wanting in all these claims to the public confidence, it is not resistance, it is not factious, it is not even disrespectful, to treat it as not having yet quite established a settled doctrine for the country—But Judge Douglas considers this view awful. Hear him:

"The courts are the tribunals prescribed by the Constitution and created by the authority of the people to determine, expound and enforce the law. Hence, whoever resists the final decision of the highest judicial tribunal, aims a deadly blow to our whole Republican system of government—a blow, which if successful would place all our rights and liberties at the mercy of passion, anarchy and violence. I repeat, therefore, that if resistance to the decisions of the Supreme Court of the United States, in a matter like the points decided in the Dred Scott case, clearly within their jurisdiction as defined by the Constitution, shall be forced upon the country as a political issue, it will become a distinct and naked issue between the friends and the enemies of the Constitution—the friends and the enemies of the supremacy of the laws."

Why this same Supreme court once decided a national bank to be constitutional; but Gen. Jackson, as President of the United States, disregarded the decision, and vetoed a bill for a re-charter, partly on constitutional ground, declaring that each public functionary must support the Constitution, "as he understands it." But hear the General’s own words. Here they are, taken from his veto message:

"It is maintained by the advocates of the bank, that its constitutionality, in all its features, ought to be considered as settled by precedent, and by the decision of the Supreme Court. To this conclusion I cannot assent. Mere precedent is a dangerous source of authority, and should not be regarded as deciding questions of constitutional power, except where the acquiescence of the people and the States can be considered as well settled. So far from this being the case on this subject, an argument against the bank might be based on precedent. One Congress in 1791, decided in favor of a bank; another in 1811, decided against it. One Congress in 1815 decided against a bank; another in 1816 decided in its favor. Prior to the present congress, therefore the precedents drawn from that source were equal. If we resort to the States, the expressions of legislative, judicial and executive opinions against the bank have been probably to those in its favor as four to one. There is nothing in precedent, therefore, which if its authority were admitted, ought to weigh in favor of the act before me."

I drop the quotations merely to remark that all there ever was, in the way of precedent up to the Dred Scott decision, on the points therein decided, had been against that decision. But hear Gen. Jackson further—

"If the opinion of the Supreme court covered the whole ground of this act, it ought not to control the co-ordinate authorities of this Government. The Congress, the executive and the court, must each for itself be guided by its own opinion of the Constitution. Each public officer, who takes an oath to support the Constitution, swears that he will support it as he understands it, and not as it is understood by others."

Again and again have I heard Judge Douglas denounce that bank decision, and applaud Gen. Jackson for disregarding it. It would be interesting for him to look over his recent speech, and see how exactly his fierce philippics against us for resisting Supreme Court decisions, fall upon his own head. It will call to his mind a long and fierce political war in this country, upon an issue which, in his own language, and, of course, in his own changeless estimation, was "a distinct and naked issue between the friends and the enemies of the Constitution," and in which war he fought in the ranks of the enemies of the Constitution.

I have said, in substance, that the Dred Scott decision was, in part, based on assumed historical facts which were not really true; and I ought not to leave the subject without giving some reasons for saying this; I therefore give an instance or two, which I think fully sustain me. Chief Justice Taney, in delivering the opinion of the majority of the Court, insists at great length that negroes were no part of the people who made, or for whom was made, the Declaration of Independence, or the Constitution of the United States.

On the contrary, Judge Curtis, in his dissenting opinion, shows that in five of the then thirteen states, to wit, New Hampshire, Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey and North Carolina, free negroes were voters, and, in proportion to their numbers, had the same part in making the Constitution that the white people had. He shows this with so much particularity as to leave no doubt of its truth; and, as a sort of conclusion on that point, holds the following language:

"The Constitution was ordained and established by the people of the United States, through the action, in each State, of those persons who were qualified by its laws to act thereon in behalf of themselves and all other citizens of the State. In some of the States, as we have seen, colored persons were among those qualified by law to act on the subject. These colored persons were not only included in the body of ‘the people of the United States,’ by whom the Constitution was ordained and established; but in at least five of the States they had the power to act, and, doubtless, did act, by their suffrages, upon the question of its adoption."

Again, Chief Justice Taney says: "It is difficult, at this day to realize the state of public opinion in relation to that unfortunate race, which prevailed in the civilized and enlightened portions of the world at the time of the Declaration of Independence, and when the Constitution of the United States was framed and adopted." And again, after quoting from the Declaration, he says: "The general words above quoted would seem to include the whole human family, and if they were used in a similar instrument at this day, would be so understood."

In these the Chief Justice does not directly assert, but plainly assumes, as a fact, that the public estimate of the black man is more favorable now than it was in the days of the Revolution. This assumption is a mistake. In some trifling particulars, the condition of that race has been ameliorated; but, as a whole, in this country, the change between then and now is decidedly the other way; and their ultimate destiny has never appeared so hopeless as in the last three or four years. In two of the five States—New Jersey and North Carolina—that then gave the free negro the right of voting, the right has since been taken away; and in a third—New York—it has been greatly abridged; while it has not been extended, so far as I know, to a single additional State, though the number of the States has more than doubled. In those days, as I understand, masters could, at their own pleasure, emancipate their slaves; but since then, such legal restraints have been made upon emancipation, as to amount almost to prohibition. In those days, Legislatures held the unquestioned power to abolish slavery, in their respective States; but now it is becoming quite fashionable for State Constitutions to withhold that power from the Legislatures. In those days, by common consent, the spread of the black man’s bondage to new countries was prohibited; but now, Congress decides that it will not continue the prohibition, and the Supreme Court decides that it could not if it would. In those days, our Declaration of Independence was held sacred by all, and thought to include all; but now, to aid in making the bondage of the negro universal and eternal, it is assailed, and sneered at, and construed, and hawked at, and torn, till, if its framers could rise from their graves, they could not at all recognize it. All the powers of earth seem rapidly combining against him. Mammon is after him; ambition follows, and philosophy follows, and the Theology of the day is fast joining the cry. They have him in his prison house; they have searched his person, and left no prying instrument with him. One after another they have closed the heavy iron doors upon him, and now they have him, as it were, bolted in with a lock of a hundred keys, which can never be unlocked without the concurrent of every key; the keys in the hands of a hundred different men, and they scattered to a hundred different and distant places; and they stand musing as to what invention, in all the dominions of mind and matter, can be produced to make the impossibility of his escape more complete than it is.

It is grossly incorrect to say or assume, that the public estimate of the negro is more favorable now than it was at the origin of the government.

Three years and a half ago, Judge Douglas brought forward his famous Nebraska bill. The country was at once in a blaze. He scorned all opposition, and carried it through Congress. Since then he has seen himself superseded in a Presidential nomination, by one indorsing the general doctrine of his measure, but at the same time standing clear of the odium of its untimely agitation, and its gross breach of national faith; and he has seen that successful rival Constitutionally elected, not by the strength of friends, but by the division of adversaries, being in a popular minority of nearly four hundred thousand votes. He has seen his chief aids in his own State, Shields and Richardson, politically speaking, successively tried, convicted, and executed, for an offense not their own, but his. And now he sees his own case, standing next on the docket for trial.

There is a natural disgust in the minds of nearly all white people, to the idea of an indiscriminate amalgamation of the white and black races; and Judge Douglas evidently is basing his chief hope, upon the chances of being able to appropriate the benefit of this disgust to himself. If he can, by much drumming and repeating, fasten the odium of that idea upon his adversaries, he thinks he can struggle through the storm. He therefore clings to this hope, as a drowning man to the last plank. He makes an occasion for lugging it in from the opposition to the Dred Scott decision. He finds the Republicans insisting that the Declaration of Independence includes ALL men, black as well as white; and forthwith he boldly denies that it includes negroes at all, and proceeds to argue gravely that all who contend it does, do so only because they want to vote, and eat, and sleep, and marry with negroes! He will have it that they cannot be consistent else. Now I protest against that counterfeit logic which concludes that, because I do not want a black woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. I need not have her for either, I can just leave her alone. In some respects she certainly is not my equal; but in her natural right to eat the bread she earns with her own hands without asking leave of any one else, she is my equal, and the equal of all others.

Chief Justice Taney, in his opinion in the Dred Scott case, admits that the language of the Declaration is broad enough to include the whole human family, but he and Judge Douglas argue that the authors of that instrument did not intend to include negroes, by the fact that they did not at once, actually place them on an equality with the whites. Now this grave argument comes to just nothing at all, by the other fact, that they did not at once, or ever afterwards, actually place all white people on an equality with one or another. And this is the staple argument of both the Chief Justice and the Senator, for doing this obvious violence to the plain unmistakable language of the Declaration. I think the authors of that notable instrument intended to include all men, but they did not intend to declare all men equal in all respects. They did not mean to say all were equal in color, size, intellect, moral developments, or social capacity. They defined with tolerable distinctness, in what respects they did consider all men created equal—equal in "certain inalienable rights, among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." This they said, and this meant. They did not mean to assert the obvious untruth, that all were then actually enjoying that equality, nor yet, that they were about to confer it immediately upon them. In fact they had no power to confer such a boon. They meant simply to declare the right, so that the enforcement of it might follow as fast as circumstances should permit. They meant to set up a standard maxim for free society, which should be familiar to all, and revered by all; constantly looked to, constantly labored for, and even though never perfectly attained, constantly approximated, and thereby constantly spreading and deepening its influence, and augmenting the happiness and value of life to all people of all colors everywhere. The assertion that "all men are created equal" was of no practical use in effecting our separation from Great Britain; and it was placed in the Declaration, not for that, but for future use. Its authors meant it to be, thank God, it is now proving itself, a stumbling block to those who in after times might seek to turn a free people back into the hateful paths of despotism. They knew the proneness of prosperity to breed tyrants, and they meant when such should re-appear in this fair land and commence their vocation they should find left for them at least one hard nut to crack.

I have now briefly expressed my view of the meaning and objects of that part of the Declaration of Independence which declares that "all men are created equal."

Now let us hear Judge Douglas’ view of the same subject, as I find it in the printed report of his late speech. Here it is:

"No man can vindicate the character, motives and conduct of the signers of the Declaration of Independence, except upon the hypothesis that they referred to the white race alone, and not to the African, when they declared all men to have been created equal—that they were speaking of British subjects on this continent being equal to British subjects born and residing in Great Britain—that they were entitled to the same inalienable rights, and among them were enumerated life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. The Declaration was adopted for the purpose of justifying the colonists in the eyes of the civilized world in withdrawing their allegiance from the British crown, and dissolving their connection with the mother country."

My good friends, read that carefully over some leisure hour, and ponder well upon it—see what a mere wreck—mangled ruin—it makes of our once glorious Declaration.

"They were speaking of British subjects on this continent being equal to British subjects born and residing in Great Britain!" Why, according to this, not only negroes but white people outside of Great Britain and America are not spoken of in that instrument. The English, Irish and Scotch, along with white Americans, were included to be sure, but the French, Germans and other white people of the world are all gone to pot along with the Judge’s inferior races.

I had thought the Declaration promised something better than the condition of British subjects; but no, it only meant that we should be equal to them in their own oppressed and unequal condition. According to that, it gave no promise that having kicked off the King and Lords of Great Britain, we should not at once be saddled with a King and Lords of our own.

I had thought the Declaration contemplated the progressive improvement in the condition of all men everywhere; but no, it merely "was adopted for the purpose of justifying the colonists in the eyes of the civilized world in withdrawing their allegiance from the British crown, and dissolving their connection with the mother country." Why, that object having been effected some eighty years ago, the Declaration is of no practical use now—mere rubbish—old wadding left to rot on the battle-field after the victory is won.

I understand you are preparing to celebrate the "Fourth," to-morrow week. What for? The doings of that day had no reference to the present; and quite half of you are not even descendants of those who were referred to at that day. But I suppose you will celebrate; and will even go so far as to read the Declaration. Suppose after you read it once in the old fashioned way, you read it once more with Judge Douglas’ version. It will then run thus: "We hold these truths to be self-evident that all British subjects who were on this continent eighty-one years ago, were created equal to all British subjects born and then residing in Great Britain."

And now I appeal to all—to Democrats as well as others,—are you really willing that the Declaration shall be thus frittered away?—thus left no more at most, than an interesting memorial of the dead past? thus shorn of its vitality, and practical value; and left without the germ or even the suggestion of the individual rights of man in it?

But Judge Douglas is especially horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races: agreed for once—a thousand times agreed. There are white men enough to marry all the white women, and black men enough to marry all the black women; and so let them be married. On this point we fully agree with the Judge; and when he shall show that his policy is better adapted to prevent amalgamation than ours we shall drop ours, and adopt his. Let us see. In 1850 there were in the United States, 405,751, mulattoes. Very few of these are the offspring of whites and free blacks; nearly all have sprung from black slaves and white masters. A separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation but as all immediate separation is impossible the next best thing is to keep them apart where they are not already together. If white and black people never get together in Kansas, they will never mix blood in Kansas. That is at least one self-evident truth. A few free colored persons may get into the free States, in any event; but their number is too insignificant to amount to much in the way of mixing blood. In 1850 there were in the free states, 56,649 mulattoes; but for the most part they were not born there—they came from the slave States, ready made up. In the same year the slave States had 348,874 mulattoes all of home production. The proportion of free mulattoes to free blacks—the only colored classes in the free states—is much greater in the slave than in the free states. It is worthy of note too, that among the free states those which make the colored man the nearest to equal the white, have, proportionally the fewest mulattoes the least of amalgamation. In New Hampshire, the State which goes farthest towards equality between the races, there are just 184 Mulattoes while there are in Virginia—how many do you think? 79,775, being 23,126 more than in all the free States together.

These statistics show that slavery is the greatest source of amalgamation; and next to it, not the elevation, but the degeneration of the free blacks. Yet Judge Douglas dreads the slightest restraints on the spread of slavery, and the slightest human recognition of the negro, as tending horribly to amalgamation.

This very Dred Scott case affords a strong test as to which party most favors amalgamation, the Republicans or the dear union-saving Democracy. Dred Scott, his wife and two daughters were all involved in the suit. We desired the court to have held that they were citizens so far at least as to entitle them to a hearing as to whether they were free or not; and then, also, that they were in fact and in law really free. Could we have had our way, the chances of these black girls, ever mixing their blood with that of white people, would have been diminished at least to the extent that it could not have been without their consent. But Judge Douglas is delighted to have them decided to be slaves, and not human enough to have a hearing, even if they were free, and thus left subject to the forced concubinage of their masters, and liable to become the mothers of mulattoes in spite of themselves—the very state of case that produces nine tenths of all the mulattoes—all the mixing of blood in the nation.

Of course, I state this case as an illustration only, not meaning to say or intimate that the master of Dred Scott and his family, or any more than a per centage of masters generally, are inclined to exercise this particular power which they hold over their female slaves.

I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation. I have no right to say all the members of the Republican party are in favor of this, nor to say that as a party they are in favor of it. There is nothing in their platform directly on the subject. But I can say a very large proportion of its members are for it, and that the chief plank in their platform—opposition to the spread of slavery—is most favorable to that separation.

Such separation, if ever effected at all, must be effected by colonization; and no political party, as such, is now doing anything directly for colonization. Party operations at present only favor or retard colonization incidentally. The enterprise is a difficult one; but "when there is a will there is a way;" and what colonization needs most is a hearty will. Will springs from the two elements of moral sense and self-interest. Let us be brought to believe it is morally right, and, at the same time, favorable to, or, at least, not against, our interest, to transfer the African to his native clime, and we shall find a way to do it, however great the task may be. The children of Israel, to such numbers as to include four hundred thousand fighting men, went out of Egyptian bondage in a body.

How differently the respective courses of the Democratic and Republican parties incidentally bear on the question of forming a will—a public sentiment—for colonization, is easy to see. The Republicans inculcate, with whatever of ability—they can, that the negro is a man; that his bondage is cruelly wrong, and that the field of his oppression ought not to be enlarged. The Democrats deny his manhood; deny, or dwarf to insignificance, the wrong of his bondage; so far as possible, crush all sympathy for him, and cultivate and excite hatred and disgust against him; compliment themselves as Union-savers for doing so; and call the indefinite outspreading of his bondage "a sacred right of self-government."

The plainest print cannot be read through a gold eagle; and it will be ever hard to find many men who will send a slave to Liberia, and pay his passage while they can send him to a new country, Kansas for instance, and sell him for fifteen hundred dollars, and the rise.

Posted by David Cohen at October 12, 2004 11:30 PM
Comments

How can anyone reading this and comparing it to modern political speeches possibly claim that we have progressed further, and are more enlightened, than our ancestors?

Posted by: Peter B at October 13, 2004 6:11 AM

We must keep in mind that for a leftist, logical consistency is merely a bourgiose affectation. What matters is the context, not the doctrine. The Constitution and laws are mere instruments of power and their value depends upon the identity of the wielder at the moment.

Posted by: at October 13, 2004 7:27 AM

Peter B.,

We are dwarfs, standing on the shoulder of giants if we're lucky.

Posted by: Eugene S. at October 13, 2004 8:21 AM

Is there a footnoted version of the speech online somewhere?

Posted by: Eugene S. at October 13, 2004 8:51 AM

It is worth keeping in mind that Taney precisely cpatured the legal-positivist view, and was being a "strict constructionist."

Lincoln is urging a view of American constitutionalism informed by the Declaration, the effective preamble to the Articles and then the Constitution. He is urging constitutionalism informed by natural right -- which, as a theocon, Bush does as well, in his own way.

The great Lincolnian political theorist Harry Jaffa elaborates on the Dred Scott issue in many places. Here is one: http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n5_v46/ai_14949896

What is interesting is that so much of the debate over Dred Scott is more a debate among conservatives about the meaning of American constitutionalism, and whether it is Calhounite or Lincolnian. The Left, as in so many cases, really has little to add to that debate. Their heros, after all, are the great Progressive legal theorists dating back to Holmes, whose views are neither Calhounite (though Jaffa might disagree) nor Lincolnian.

Posted by: kevin whited at October 13, 2004 10:44 AM

kevin whited,

Thank you for the interesting link, which I'll have to read carefully later.

"Incoherent, inconsequential, and disingenuous" (Judge Bork). I wonder if lawyers in general are slightly unhinged? Is this kind of vituperation a common affliction in the "verbal" professions? Do engineers or geologists talk the same way amongst themselves?

Posted by: Eugene S. at October 13, 2004 11:14 AM

Eugene;

The engineers I know do.

Posted by: Annoying Old Guy at October 13, 2004 11:31 AM

Kevin -- Taney wants to be thought a strict constructionist forced to an uncongenial result by his duty as a justice. What he actually does is ignore the Constitutional text entirely.

The only relevant text is Section 2, Clause 1: "The judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, . . . to Controversies . . . between Citizens of different States."

There was no question that Dred Scott, if free, was a citizen of Missouri, and his owner was not. So, under the plain language of the Constitution, the court had jurisdiction. To counter this, Taney simply waves his arms around, claiming that black slaves and their dependents could never be citizens because that was the belief (though not expressed in the constitution) of the benighted Revolutionary generation. The dissent demolishes his argument.

It is, I grant you, interesting that Taney felt compelled to pay lip service to, and protected by, original meaning jurisprudence. Nonetheless, that is not what he did.

It is also worth noting that ignoring the language of the constitution in favor of an appeal to a history that is both wrong and irrelevant is one of the many threads that joins Dred Scott to Roe. Justice Blackmun argued (incorrectly, as it happens) that abortion was never illegal until the early to mid-19th century and thus its illegality in 1973 was somehow suspect. As one of my law professors pointed out, the same could be said of slavery, but nobody thinks that is an argument for bringing it back.

Posted by: David Cohen at October 13, 2004 12:29 PM

What would happen if abortion were made illegal again?

Posted by: Eugene S. at October 13, 2004 12:33 PM

Eugene: It's not going to happen. The most that could happen is that Roe will be reversed and the question of abortion will be left to the states. Blue states will allow it more or less freely and red states will regulate it more or less strictly. Until, of course, the blue states are empty and the reconquista begins.

Posted by: David Cohen at October 13, 2004 2:27 PM

David,

So, is the Republican strategy to:

-- appoint pro-life judges to the Supreme Court, but not introduce any legislation?

-- wait for a case to be brought (by whom) so that Roe vs. Wade can be reversed?

How would the legality/criminality of abortion be de-federalized?

If some states allow abortion and others don't, would that cut down on the number of abortions?

Posted by: Eugene S. at October 13, 2004 2:54 PM

>We must keep in mind that for a leftist,
>logical consistency is merely a bourgiose
>affectation. What matters is the context, not
>the doctrine.

Context being "I'M RIGHT! YOU'RE WRONG! HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!!!!!"

Posted by: Ken at October 13, 2004 4:14 PM

I'll check back in tomorrow to see if there are any answers.

Posted by: Eugene S. at October 13, 2004 4:20 PM

In this term, Congress passed the partial birth abortion ban. The administration has been nibbling away at abortion in a number of ways.

Nevertheless, no progress can be made until the courts are changed. The partial birth abortion ban was struck down by the courts. Which goes to your question about how a case will arise. As the states and the federal government try to rein in abortion on demand, the courts will have constant opportunities to reverse Roe.

Prior to Roe, abortion was a matter for state regulation. Four states had recently liberalized their abortion laws, although in one, New York, the legislature had voted to reverse the reform. Governor Rockefeller vetoed that bill. So simply reversing Roe would "defederalize" abortion.

That would drastically reduce the number of abortions.

Posted by: David Cohen at October 13, 2004 10:32 PM

Thanks. Just to be sure I understand you, then, the sequence goes like this:

(1) Lawmakers in one or several states restrict abortion by stages, or perhaps even entirely.

(2) A woman who is thus prevented from obtaining an abortion in her home state petitions the court for relief. The court strikes down the new law.

(3) If certiorari is granted, the case ends up in the Supreme Court. With a new, Bush-appointed pro-life majority, the Court takes hold of the opportunity and reverses Roe.

(4) The door is now open to prohibit abortion in other states if the legislatures act accordingly.

Have I understood you correctly?

My earlier question still stands: If some states allow abortion and others don't, would that cut down on the number of abortions? (And if your answer is yes, please explain why; note that the Irish still outlaw abortion but don't stop women from hopping over to Britain to get one there.) (Also, please don't answer, "Well if the woman could cross the state line to get an abortion then she never had a case in the first place!": too clever by half.)

And if the Supreme Court decides that a law prohibiting abortion can be constitutional, what's to prevent Congress from making it a federal crime?

N.B. I apologize for using fancy lawyer talk ("certiorari") while not being a lawyer myself.

Posted by: Eugene S. at October 15, 2004 1:24 PM

That should have been "(3) ... the court upholds the new law."

Posted by: Eugene S. at October 15, 2004 1:26 PM

In (2), not (3), you %&!$§ Arggh.

Posted by: Eugene S. at October 15, 2004 1:28 PM

Reversing or upholding works fine. Either way, it presents a case for further appellate review.

Can Congress outlaw abortion if there is no constitutional protection for it? A close question, but any court that reverses Roe is likely to also say that regulating abortion is not within Congress' power. Now, can Congress say that Medicare, for example, or medical school tuition assistance, is not available in any state that doesn't prohibit abortion? Probably.

As for whether the number of abortions would be reduced if they were only available in a relatively small number of states, your guess is as good as mine. My guess is yes.

Posted by: David Cohen at October 15, 2004 1:41 PM

[1] A close question, but any court that reverses Roe is likely to also say that regulating abortion is not within Congress' power.

But only if the reversal is based on the reasoning that the power to regulate abortion should never have been taken away from the states, right?

[2] Now, can Congress say that Medicare, for example, or medical school tuition assistance, is not available in any state that doesn't prohibit abortion?

Wow. No Medicare if you don't fall in line on abortion (and not even a rebate on taxes). To start something this divisive, you have to be pretty certain not only of the rightness of your cause but its effectiveness, too.

[3] As for whether the number of abortions would be reduced if they were only available in a relatively small number of states, your guess is as good as mine.

My questions are basically driving at this: Assuming that we share the premise that abortion is a tragedy because it destroys what is likely to become a full-grown human, and therefore should be avoided, but keeping in mind that abortion is not murder (unless we want to permit the state to put the mother to death by lethal injection, which we do not) but a problem sui generis, the question is, what is the most effective means of driving down the number of abortions while not condemning thousands of women to die from infections contracted from backroom/coathanger abortions... [4] and also considering there is nothing in the Constitution that permits the state to transgress the line drawn by a person's skin (except for capital punishment, or shooting a hostage taker... but that exception is because of murder, either to punish or to prevent it)?

[5] When I look at this Table of Abortion Rates in Industrialized Countries and find the U.S. near the top with 21.3 per 1000, compared to 6.5 per 1000 in the Netherlands, which also permit abortion, this tells me there are other things which should be tried before the hugely divisive course which you are charting.

Posted by: Eugene S. at October 15, 2004 2:27 PM

Hey, where did the numbers [1] thru [4] in my post above come from?

Posted by: Eugene S. at October 15, 2004 5:03 PM

Eugene: I've taken the libery of inserting numbers into your post do keep down the cross-quoting.

1 The most likely basis for reversing Roe is for the Court to undo what Roe did. Roe held that there was an inchoate right to privacy in the constitution, emanating from the penumbra of the enumerated rights, that included a woman's right to choose abortion without interference from the state (I'm oversimplifying, but that's where we are). I expect any court reversing Roe to say that there are no emanations or penumbras and thus no limit on the states' ability to regulate abortion.

The court could say, and many conservatives would like it to say, that the Fourteenth Amendment extends to fetuses the equal protection rights of citizens. Thus, excluding them from the protection from intentional harm extended to all other people is unconstitutional. I don't think this Court would do that -- Scalia and Thomas, for example, would scream bloody murder (on rereading, I realize I have to say no pun intended) -- but I could be wrong. But, even if the Court said this, Congress would have no role to play. For Congress to act, the issue must be tied to one of its enumerated powers, and it can't be. Although the Court has gone back and forth on how seriously it takes the enumerated powers, right now this Court is taking it more seriously than any court in years.

2 Congress conditions lots of funds on the states doing things that Congress can't mandate. Highway funds are dependent having a certain drinking age, etc. Medicare funding now is dependent on the states having certain programs and coverages. You say that this would be divisive, but if Congress said that Medicare funding is dependent on a state banning partial birth abortions, requiring parental (for minors) and paternal notification unless a judge excuses it and banning abortion after viability, I think the vast majority of Americans would approve.

3 My abortion position is completely bizarre. I really care more about the constitutional issue than I do about the substantive issue of abortion. As nobody wants to ban it entirely and almost nobody wants to leave it completely unregulated, abortion is an issue ripe for political compromise. Different states will draw different lines, as they are entitled to do under the constitution. Although my "king of the world" position would be relatively restrictive (see, for example, the position set out for Congress above) I would accept as valid a more liberal regime, so long as it was the result of the political process of that particular state.

4 This is completely and totally wrong. The states absolutely have the power, if they so choose, to "transgress" our skin. The states have all the police power of a sovereign country, except where the constitution specifically limits their power. There are very few such limitations, and none have to do with whether the subject lies inside or outside of our bodies. If you take the set that is all the powers of government, they belong to the states unless the constitution specifically gives them to the federal government.

5 I'm always skeptical about comparisons to other countries, especially racially homogenous countries without an immigrant population or tradition. The Dutch experience just isn't germane to the US. I do think that convincing social dissapproval of abortion will go a long way towards removing it as an option, as would financial penalties, such as a reduction of government benefits.

Posted by: David Cohen at October 15, 2004 5:25 PM

David,

Again, thank you for taking the time to reply at length.

[1] I expect any court reversing Roe to say that there are no emanations or penumbras and thus no limit on the states' ability to regulate abortion.

Seems plausible to me.

[2] Stated as moderately as you do, I could buy into that.

[3] As nobody wants to ban it entirely and almost nobody wants to leave it completely unregulated, abortion is an issue ripe for political compromise
Ditto.

[4] I am in way over my head, but permit me to ask with all the humility (hah!) this layman can muster, when the Ninth Amendment says, "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people," does that not imply that the right to decide what happens within your own body can be assumed to exist (which is not the same thing as calling it an absolute right)?

[5] Dutch experience just isn't germane to the US
I don't buy into that at all. Learning from others' success and applying these lessons to the extent they are applicable is good common sense. Your blanket dismissal does not convince me.
social dissapproval of abortion will go a long way towards removing it as an option Without a doubt, but presumably the way to that goal is public discourse, not the courts.

I forgot to ask, How easy is it presently for a pregnant woman who does not want to keep the baby to check herself in a friendly place where all expenses are paid for (perhaps with a stipend in addition) up to and including childbirth, and then give up the child for adoption into a carefully vetted family? (I guess this question could be numbered [6].

Posted by: Eugene S. at October 15, 2004 5:47 PM

What does the Ninth Amendment mean? Nothing.

Posted by: David Cohen at October 15, 2004 7:59 PM

No one ever likes that answer, though, so let's take the long way around.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

The Amendment is written in English. Nothing that they teach in law school unlocks the secret code of the constitution. This is the worst effect of modern jurisprudence: perfectly intelligent people don't think that they can read the constitution and figure out what it means. This is exactly the opposite of what the Framers thought they were doing.

Since it is in English, let's read it. It protects unenumerated rights that are "retained" by the people. The people can only "retain" those rights that they had prior to the constitution. So, if you want to argue that a particular right is protected by the Ninth Amendment, you have to show, at the minimum, that it was a right recognized before June 21, 1788.

But we are looking at this with 21st century eyes. We think that a right is the special province of the courts. The Framers, who had just fought a war to retain their rights as Englishmen, so to speak, didn't put their faith in the courts. They put their faith in a well-regulated militia.

Which brings us back to what we do learn in law school. The only thing that law school teaches is what the courts have made of the constitution. So, I do have some special insight into what the courts say the Ninth Amendment means. They say it means nothing.

Posted by: David Cohen at October 15, 2004 8:14 PM

5. The abortion rate among white women of child bearing years is 12 per thousand. Very low on your chart. The rate among black women of child bearing years is 35 per thousand. I just don't think that the Dutch experience is relevant.

6. I have no idea.

Posted by: David Cohen at October 15, 2004 8:17 PM

A bit frustrating (your comment on the Ninth Amendment) but I appreciate your directness nonetheless.

The Netherlands stopped being an "ethnically homogeneous" country a long time ago. I don't have statistics on hand, but I am pretty sure that if you add up the ethnic Indonesians, Surinamese, Moroccans, Turks, Africans etc., you could get a similar "non-white" percentage to the U.S., depending on how encompassing one takes the word "white" to be. Then again, these ethnic communities are very different from African-Americans in the U.S. I still say, it's worth the effort to go see what they are doing right and if any of it is transferable.

Posted by: Eugene S. at October 16, 2004 1:26 PM

If it doesn't mean nothing, what does it mean? I'm not going to be happy, though, if it means that some small group gets to pull out "fundamental" rights on an ad hoc basis in order to trump the will of the majority.

As for the Netherlands:

Ethnic groups:
Dutch 83%, other 17% (of which 9% are non-Western origin mainly Turks, Moroccans, Antilleans, Surinamese and Indonesians) (1999 est.)

Religions:
Roman Catholic 31%, Protestant 21%, Muslim 4.4%, other 3.6%, unaffiliated 40% (1998)

Languages:
Dutch (official language), Frisian (official language)

Literacy:
definition: age 15 and over can read and write
total population: 99% (2000 est.)

Posted by: David Cohen at October 16, 2004 9:23 PM
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