Gentiles can and do convert to Judiasm. We're open to converts, but don't solicit them.

The Druze who have similar rules are facing the same problem.

Apropos of nothing, I've met several Parsis and all the women were seriously hot. Maybe there's something to that fire worship thing.

David:

Not under Israeli law.

The Shakers pulled this trick much earlier. Perhaps we learned our lesson then, and that's why the birth rate is still high in America. I do wonder if these aging countries will reach a crisis point and have a revival.

mike:

Like the Shakers have?

OJ,

You are factually wrong. Israeli courts expressly accept conversion in accordance with halacha. An Israeli fellow math geek I know has a German(raised Protestant in Stuttgart) wife he met at that most romantic of places, the Stanford University Medical School Library. They decided to get married and she converted in accordance with halacha and travels with an Israeli passport.

What Israel doesn't accept is conversion in accordance with Reform or Conservative tradition. Thus, if I were to marry out and insist on my future spouse converting, a non-negotiable item, she would do so in accordance with Reform tradition and this is not accepted under Israeli law. It is a major sticking point between Israel and the big Diaspora communities, like the US, the former Soviet Bloc, Australia, France and Britain.

"What Israel doesn't accept is conversion in accordance with Reform or Conservative tradition. "

But expressly accepts coversion in accordance with Orthodox law.

so "We're open to converts" is false, no?

If you convert in accordance with halacha, your conversion is welcome. I'm not happy about it but it is a far cry from Druzes and Zoroastrians who forbid conversion absolutely. The State of Israel has chosen, wrongly in my view, to accept a particular sectarian view of conversion to Judaism, but that is a wholly different matter than banning conversions entirely which is what you are claiming.

So Israel isn't open to converts, is it?

If you convert in accordance with Halacha, it is open to converts. If you do not convert in accordance with Halacha but in accordance with other Jewish traditions, no. Isfaeli citizenship is available to some converts but not to others.

I do not understand why this is so difficult for you to comprehend.

"Israeli citizenship is available to some converts but not to others."

"We're open to converts..."

Bart:

The late Persis Khambatta (a former Miss India and Ilia in "Star Trek: The Motion Picture") was, IIRC, a Parsi.

Actually, there's some talk that Zoroastrianism is making something of a comeback in Iran itself as yet another sign of reaction against the mullahs.

The Shakers obviously didn't, which uh.. was my point. And I agree that Japan and Europe's xenophobia and morribund spiritiality is taking it's toll, but would you rule out all possibility of change? When it comes to small groups of people, these ideas do indeed lead to extinction, but within groups of 100+million, exctinction is a long way to fall without someone pulling back on the stick, so to speak.

Mike:

When has a culture ever pulled back?

The church has been through several revival/recoveries, although being born again is a birth rate of a different sort.

The level of economic development needed to reach the narcotic stupor that most of these countries find themselves in is a recent development, so I guess we'll see how it turns out. Addiction isn't good, but doesn't preclude recovery. Perhaps the US is an example - after all, the 70's weren't the highpoint of anything.

Orrin, in your little exchange with Bart, you're contradicting yourself.

You have said, many times and as recently as about three days ago, in the context of Acton and the Church, that the church gets to set the rules.

By your own standards, then, Israel does welcome converts, on its own terms. Who else would have the right to set them?

Harry:

I didn't say they don't have a right to. I said they're commiting suicide by doing so. The exercise of rights is frequently counterproductive.

Two other famous Parsis:

Zubin Metha, Englebert Humperdinck (and you thought it was just a great tan), and Freddy Mercury of Queen (which partly explains the declining birth rate).

Two other famous Parsis:

Zubin Metha, Englebert Humperdink (and you thought it was just a great tan), and Freddy Mercury of Queen (which partly explains the declining birth rate).

Oops, that's three.

The Parsi are losing their ethnic coherency because they are well educated and succesfull (they dominate industry in India, see the Tata Group and Godrej conglomerate), and they have spread across the world and outmarry. Which is the opposite of Japanese demographic trends you are so fond of attacking.

Other famous Parsi include Freddie Mercury and Zeuben Mehta.

H.D. gets the spelling bee.

My apologies, both lose: Zubin Mehta

The state of play for converts in Israel is pretty complex, but here goes:

As far as Jews are concerned, all the various movements allow for conversion. The Orthodox recognize only their converts; the Conservatives recognize their converts and the Orthodox converts; and the reform recognize anyone's converts.

As far as Israel is concerned, things get more complex. First, Israel does allow for secular immigration. People need not be Jews to immigrate. Jews, however, have a right to immigrate and a right to Israeli citizenship.

For purposes of immigration under the Israeli law of return, "Jew" includes someone who is Jewish under Jewish law, the immediate family of someone who is Jewish under Jewish law and his or her children or grandchildren. So, to bring this home, assuming Dr. Judd is halachically Jewish, Orrin has the right to immigrate to Israel, their children have that right and their grandchildren have that right regardless of whether they are themselves practicing Jews.
Even if Orrin were Jewish, Dr. Judd weren't Jewish, and thus the children and grandchildren were not halachically Jewish, they would still have the right to immigrate.

Also, note that this right is not dependent upon Dr. Judd immigrating. If the little Judds, when grown, decide to immigrate while leaving their parents behind, they have that right. One hundred years from now (assuming the laws haven't changed) the grandchildren will still have the right of return.

As a result of this, Israel has been flooded with non-Jewish immigrants as of right. Most of these are Russian Christians and secularists, but there have also been a flood of Iraqi Kurds, who are practicing Muslims, but had a Jewish grandparent. (There's a story told whenever this question comes up of a Jew who left his Jewish wife behind in Kurdistan in the '50s and immigrated to Israel. She married a Muslim man and they had a bunch of kids, and then they all married and had a bunch of kids. Eventually, 170 Muslims (kids, spouses and grandkids) showed up in Israel and successfully claimed entry under the right of return.)

As far as converts are concerned, Israel accepts converts from abroad, regardless of which branch of Judaism performed the conversion. That is, converts under Reform or Conservative procedures also have the right of return. However, once in Israel, such converts are not currently considered halachically Jewish. The Knesset and the Supreme Court are currently trying to figure out what to do about this.

Although the Orthodox rabbinate in Israel very much wants this state of affairs to change and most Israeli's, ambivalent about Christian and Muslim immigrants as of right, would also like some tightening, it is very unlikely that the law will actually change because North American Jews, predominately Reform and Conservative, are very strongly against any tightening at all.

For non-Jewish immigrants in Israel, the issue of Reform or Conservative converts is more difficult. The law is somewhat ambiguous, but the practice is clear. Only Orthodox rabbi's can perform conversions in Israel that will be accepted by the civil authorities, which allows, among other things, immediate citizenship. This, too, is being challenged. The Conservative movement has recently set up a conversian procedure in Israel, but so far its converts have not been recognized. There is also a movement to have Israeli immigrants travel outside the country for quicky conversions and then return and demand citizenship. The Supreme Court has thrown up its hands and kicked this question to the Knesset.

I get it! OJ is parodying people who claim that opposition to same-sex marriage is equivalent to opposition to gays getting married.

David:

So "We're open to converts" isn't accurate, no?

No.

Yes.

You did not say, Orrin, that the policy was wrongheaded. You said it did not exist.

Obviously, it does exist, and you don't like it.

But if a convert is not willing to perform the ritual, then he isn't really a convert, is he?

You want to be careful here, as you are contradicting your position regarding treatment of the conversos.

Harry:

The Spanish were foolish to persecute the conversos, who were in fact Catholic.

I suppose this might have been ambiguous. In case it was: By "No", I meant that OJ is wrong and Israel is open to converts.

Yet you have frequently defended the Spaniards' persecution and murder of the conversos.

Harry:

No. I've defended persecution of heretics. Conversos were loyal Catholics. They were targeted for racial reasons not religious by secular authority not religious. The Church made the process orderly and few died as a result.

David:

"Israel accepts converts from abroad, regardless of which branch of Judaism performed the conversion. That is, converts under Reform or Conservative procedures also have the right of return. However, once in Israel, such converts are not currently considered halachically Jewish. The Knesset and the Supreme Court are currently trying to figure out what to do about this.

Although the Orthodox rabbinate in Israel very much wants this state of affairs to change and most Israeli's, ambivalent about Christian and Muslim immigrants as of right, would also like some tightening, it is very unlikely that the law will actually change because North American Jews, predominately Reform and Conservative, are very strongly against any tightening at all.

For non-Jewish immigrants in Israel, the issue of Reform or Conservative converts is more difficult. The law is somewhat ambiguous, but the practice is clear. Only Orthodox rabbi's can perform conversions in Israel that will be accepted by the civil authorities, which allows, among other things, immediate citizenship. This, too, is being challenged. The Conservative movement has recently set up a conversian procedure in Israel, but so far its converts have not been recognized. There is also a movement to have Israeli immigrants travel outside the country for quicky conversions and then return and demand citizenship. The Supreme Court has thrown up its hands and kicked this question to the Knesset."

Welcome, you're just not a Jew anymore.

And thus it is demonstrated that Israel is open to converts. QED.

Orrin, you're just making that up.

You're the one who read Kamen. The point of that study was that they killed conversos without regard to whether they were relapsed or not.

As they say in the 'Skeptical Inquirer,' everybody is entitled to his own opinion. Everybody is not entitled to his own set of facts.