August 6, 2004

A MONASTERY IS FITTING FOR A RELIGION (via Jeff Guinn):

Neural Darwinism: Gerald Edelman was awarded the Nobel prize for physiology and medicine in 1972. One of the world’s foremost experts on the brain and consciousness, he is founder and director of the Neurosciences Institute in La Jolla, Calif., a “scientific monastery,” where he spoke with NPQ editor Nathan Gardels. (NPQ, Summer 2004)

NPQ | What accounts for consciousness in human beings—that is, to be aware and able to go beyond “the information given” in a particular situation? When did it emerge?

GERALD EDELMAN | The most important thing to understand is that the brain is “context bound.” [...]

NPQ | To say that consciousness is self-organizing according to evolutionary principles with no ultimate Programmer is to say there is no division between soul and matter, that the spirit isn’t in some spooky domain but rather is a biological phenomenon. Indeed, you say the main purpose of your recent book, Wider Than the Sky, is “to disenthrall those who believe consciousness is metaphysical.”

EDELMAN | It is silly reductionism, of course, to claim that you and I are just bags of molecules. But I do not believe consciousness arises from spooky forces.


Poor fella, it's already too late to avoid sounding like a silly reductionist. The context boundary is the most notorious stumbling block to materialism in all of human thought. To speak of context is to admit that whatever you think you know is entirely subjective, as is your own belief in you. Thus, consciousness precedes the "information given". "I think" precedes "I am"--making it a statement of faith, not a material fact. Happily, faith suffices.

Posted by Orrin Judd at August 6, 2004 11:51 PM
Comments

Consciousness may not be metaphysical, but we perceive the metaphysical because we're conscious.

As noted in our debates over euthanasia, consciousness and the soul aren't linked.
Neither one causes the other.

Posted by: Michael Herdegen at August 7, 2004 3:09 AM

Uh oh, here comes Harry... :)

Posted by: Matt Murphy at August 7, 2004 5:19 AM

OJ:

The context boundary has absolutely nothing to do with the point in discussion.

Even admitting everything we know is subjective has no bearing on whether conciousness is the gift of some Big Spook, or a purely biological phenomena.

Posted by: Jeff Guinn at August 7, 2004 2:05 PM

Jeff:

reread what you wrote and see if you can identify where you rocket off the rails of Reason.

Posted by: oj at August 7, 2004 2:21 PM

OJ:

No, you tell me.

The rails of Reason insist there is some objectively true answer to that question, even if we might be forever barred from knowing it. Nothing you have ever said contradicts that.

Posted by: Jeff Guinn at August 8, 2004 9:05 AM

Having conceded that everything you know is subjective you've forfeited any certainty that pure biological phenomena exist.

A person who loses a limb may have phantom pain--it doesn't mean they still have the arm.

A computer may know how to add, doesn't make it a biological entity.

A psychotic may talk to an imaginary friend, doesn't make that friend exist.

The stuff of our minds is not provably material.

Posted by: oj at August 8, 2004 9:11 AM

Usably material.

You need to assert that either proof or faith is necessary, because you want to choose faith.

There is not the slightest necessity to choose either.

The tree may not have provably fallen in the forest 400 million years ago, because you were not there to hear it, yet we have coal.

Posted by: Harry Eagar at August 8, 2004 3:12 PM

So we believe.

Posted by: oj at August 8, 2004 4:41 PM

You could disbelieve, but the coal would still be there.

Men of faith disbelieved in the moons of Jupiter. Look where it got 'em.

Posted by: Harry Eagar at August 9, 2004 3:14 PM

So we believe.

Posted by: oj at August 9, 2004 3:20 PM

There you go again, with the M. Python (tm) Argument Clinic.

"The stuff of our minds is not provably material."

No, but on the whole it seems a heck of a lot more likely than the alternative. The workings of the brain as revealed through localized injury attest very well.

Posted by: Jeff Guinn at August 9, 2004 8:41 PM

Jeff:

"more likely" sic transit materialism

Posted by: oj at August 9, 2004 9:09 PM

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