June 7, 2004
THE ROOSTERS DON'T MAKE THE SUN RISE:
On Israel, neoconservatism, and its discontents (Ariel Natan Pasko, June 7, 2004, Enter Stage Right)
What is all this talk about neos and paleos? Paleoconservatives, or traditional conservatives, or old-style conservatives claim that they represent "true" conservatism. They say that the neoconservatives are for the most part, escapees from the New-Old Left of the New Deal or 1960's. Paleocons say that neocons are interventionist in foreign affairs, whereas traditional conservatism is more isolationist. Paleos claim that neocons are not adverse to big government to achieve their goals, of extending American power and influence overseas. Paleocons accuse neocons of lack of interest in domestic economic issues and are more socially lenient that traditional conservatives. In that regard, for the most part, Pat Buchanan and the other paleocons are somewhat correct.On the other hand... So what?
As I said earlier, terminology is evolving. 21st century terminology -- what's a conservative -- might not be the same as 20th century terminology, just as the term Liberal has changed its meaning in time.
In America today, there are economic interventionists and those who are for freedom from control; there are social-political interventionists and those who are for freedom from control; and there are foreign policy interventionists and isolationists. The only relevant issue is where a person, group, party, or policy stands on this triad. The current terminology blurs distinctions and labels help to muddle thinking.
Pat Buchanan, Rep. Jim Moran, Louis Farrakhan, David Duke and others, all blamed the Neo-Cons -- read Jews -- and Israel for the war in Iraq. More recently, Senator Ernest "Fritz" Hollings and retired general Anthony Zinni have also. So did elements on the far-left in America, the PC people, and the Islamists. It's true that many neoconservative thinkers are Jewish, and the war -- in theory -- benefited Israel (who doesn't like to see their sworn enemy defanged?), but many other neoconservatives aren't Jewish, and the war also benefited the entire western democratic world. Pointing out that many neocons are Jewish is the equivalent of pointing out that many Nazis or Ku Klux Klan members are white Christians. So what?
Blaming all Christians for the Klan or Nazis, just as blaming "the Jews", well I think you get the point.
The war in Iraq simply was America's attempt to suppress rogue state behavior, the spread of weapons of mass destruction, terror-supporting regimes, and reshape the Middle East, whether others understood it, agreed with them or not. Whether America should act multi-laterally, uni-laterally, or be isolationist is an issue worth discussion. But, blaming one group, "the Jews" is simply anti-Semitic. All the accusations that it's "Likudniks" -- the ruling party of Ariel Sharon in Israel -- in the White House directing policy, bemoans the fact that the Bush Administration policy toward Israeli-Palestinian peacemaking -- the roadmap process -- might in fact be on a collision course with Israel, but, more of that later.
There's a fairly simple thought experiment that can lay the whole neocon conspiracy theory to rest: just imagine for a moment that neoconservatism didn't exist but that we still had a conservative evangelical president--is there any reason to believe his policy of trying to Reform Islam and make it more like Christianity would be any different? Posted by Orrin Judd at June 7, 2004 12:20 PM
Yeah, sure.
But Ariel Natan Pasko is obviously Jewish and is obvious in on the conspiracy.
So why trust him, eh?
Posted by: Barry Meislin at June 7, 2004 5:17 PMYes, it would be significantly different in that it wouldn't rely on a dubious policy of Wilsonian zeal and "preemption," which are policy conceits put forward and argued for exclusively by neocons--which, BTW, neither Buchanan or Moran ever identified as being "The Jews," or even exclusively Jewish--Gaffney, Bennet, Donnelly and others aren't Jewish, but are thoroughly neocon.
Posted by: Derek Copold at June 7, 2004 5:23 PMWilson was Jewish?
Posted by: oj at June 7, 2004 5:46 PMNo, nor do I identify neoconservatism as being essentially "Jewish." You asked about "neoconservatism."
Posted by: Derek Copold at June 7, 2004 5:51 PMPat routinely says the Israel lobby controls foreign policy:
http://www.issues2000.org/Celeb/Pat_Buchanan_War_&_Peace.htm
Posted by: oj at June 7, 2004 5:51 PMThe word he used is "dominate," and with respect to the Middle East, it clearly does. Domination does not equal "control." It means Israeli concerns loom out of proportion in American policy considerations.
However, this does not mean that he's saying the Israeli Lobby speaks for all Jews.
Posted by: Derek Copold at June 7, 2004 5:56 PMOf course it's Jewish.
Posted by: oj at June 7, 2004 5:57 PMBut that doesn't mean it's identical to "The Jews." I bet you have your problems with Tikkun. That doesn't make you equivalent to Louis Farrakhan.
Posted by: Derek Copold at June 7, 2004 6:01 PMNo hair shall be left unsplit in the defense of anti-Semitic conspiracy theory.
Posted by: oj at June 7, 2004 6:03 PMJim Moran is pretty clear that it's the Jews' war:
"If it were not for the strong support of the Jewish community for this war
with Iraq, we would not be doing this. The leaders of the Jewish community
are influential enough that they could change the direction of where this is
going, and I think they should."
Current American foreign policy isn't Wilsonian.
We went in spite of the UN, not with it.
Did Wilson have international approval for Mexico, WWI, or Russia?
Posted by: oj at June 8, 2004 8:19 AMFor the Great War, absolutely.
President Taft had already sent US warships on a saber-rattling mission into Mexican waters, so Wilson's Mexican policies were more of a continuation than a genesis.
Pancho Villa, whatever he might have been in, or to, Mexican society, performed criminal acts in America.
What US President would have ignored the Zimmermann Note ?
(BTW, Pancho Villa's last words were: "Don't let it end like this. Tell them I said something").
Wilson didn't even have American support for his "Fourteen Points", much less international.
However, Russian territory seized by Germany did go back to Russia.
Which international body approved our commitment of troops to topple Villa, the Kaiser & the Bolsheviks?
Posted by: oj at June 8, 2004 8:55 AMYou asked if Wilson had "international approval", not if he had a time machine.
Posted by: Michael Herdegen at June 8, 2004 11:10 AMCurrent American foreign policy isn't Wilsonian.
We went in spite of the UN, not with it.
Posted by Michael Herdegen at June 8, 2004 01:55 AM
Bush is Wilsonian.
Posted by: oj at June 8, 2004 12:06 PM