Bush clearly was implying that our involvement in the war began with a surprise attack. He certainly knows that WWII began before that. It is a sign of the sheer arrogance of these people that they can convince themselves of something obviously false to stoke their own fires of hatred.

Now OJ clam down. The Canadians were loyal subjects of the King and fought bravely in the Second war on his behalf. It is only in recent years that socialism has unmaned them.

Besides, WWII began with the Japanese invasion of Manchuria in 1931.

And their current Prime Minister insisted several times in a speech that on D-Day the Allies invaded Norway.

Orin,

Concerning your sarcastic comment about Canada's contribution in the wars against tyranny, I offer the following:

Canada entered WWII almost two years before the USA. And Canadian battle deaths were 42,000 compared to American sacrifices of 291,000. Given that the US population is about 10X that of Canada, it is clear that our effort was proportionally somewhat greater than the US. It is no denigration of the heroism of Americans to point out that the USA did not exactly cover itself in glory in the first two years of Japanese and Nazi aggression, to the point of having an Ambassador to Britain who was rather in favour of a German victory. As for specific contributions, Canadians have done very well in battle, from Passchendaele and Vimy ridge in WWI, to Dieppe, Italy, Juno Beach in WWII and then on to Korea. Canada is smaller than the US, but we are mighty. We do things a little different. But your comments were unkind, ungracious, uncharitable, unwarranted and uninformed -- and not up to the usual standard of the blog.

John Morris
Toronto, Canada

1. Clearly, Bush was referring to the official American entry into WWII.

Those who think that Bush believes WWII started on 7 December '42 have some problems of their own they may, or may not, want to explore. Those who think that Bush was ungenerous or arrogant are welcome to continue feeling superior (if it makes them feel better....)

2. Denigrating Canada's tremendous contribution to WWII simply does not wash historically and can serve no good purpose.

3. It is only in recent years that socialism has unmaned them.

One more bald assertion in these heady days of hairy ideological warfare?

Should be 7 December '41.

It wasn't a World War until we got involved. Until then, it was just one of those interminable European squables that erupt every hundred years or so that happened to coincide with some Japanese adventurism in Asia.

David:

Yes, but remember that courageous Canadian last ditch stand that prevented....

Mr. Morris:

I don't doubt y'all were better at dying, but Canada did nothing either until the Commonwealth was engaged, right? It's not like Canadians rode off to save the Czechs or Poles.

http://oh.essortment.com/canadaworldwar_rmdk.htm

August 23 to 24, 1939 saw the Soviet/German non-aggression Pact signed in Moscow. By August 26, Hitler had postponed the invasion of Poland. This was a last minute decision. Hitler had heard that Britain and Poland had formed a formal alliance.

September 1st, the German army invaded Poland on Hitlers orders and without a declaration of war. This action was the beginning of WWII.

On September 3rd, Britain, France, Amsterdam, Australia and New Zealand declared war on Germany. On September 4th, Britains Royal Air Force began its first attacks on German warships. The next day, the United States made an announcement declaring its neutrality.

On September 9th, it was learned that two Canadian women were on the unarmed ocean liner, SSAthenia, which had been sunk by German U-boats. The next day, Canada declared war on Germany independently.

Prime Minister William Lyon McKenzie King said it all in the House of Commons:

For months, indeed for years, the shadow of impending conflict in Europe has been ever present. Through these troubled years, no stone has been left unturned, no road unexplored in the patient search for peace. Unhappily for the world, Herr Hitler and the nazi regime in Germany have persisted in their attempt to extend their control over other peoples and countries, and to pursue their aggressive design in wanton disregard of all treaty obligations, and peaceful methods of adjusting international disputes. They have had to resort increasingly to agencies of deception, terrorism and violence. It is this reliance upon force, this lust for conquest, this determination to dominate throughout the world, which is the real cause of the war that today threatens the freedom of mankind.

This morning, the King (of England) speaking to his peoples at home and across the seas, appealed to all to make their own, the cause of freedom, which Britain again has taken up. Canada has already answered that call. On Friday the government, speaking on behalf of the Canadian people, announced that in the event of the United Kingdom becoming engaged in war in the effort to resist aggression, they would, as soon as parliament meets, seek its authority for effective co-operation by Canada at the side of Britain.

Orrin:

Amsterdam declared war in 1939?

You are being outrageous. Anti-Canadian fanaticism should always be at least partially grounded in fact. There was never any question but that Canada was going to war from the moment Germany invaded Poland on September 1st. The Goverment wanted to make the point that it would declare war independently, unlike in WW1 when it was bound by Britain. The Aussies and Kiwis weren't so particular so they simply accepted Britain's declaration as their own. The Canadian Parliament was recalled, which took at least a week at that time. There declaration was passed with but one dissenting vote. The idea that it was all about Canadian casualties on the Athenia is absurd.

Peter:

You went to war when your Commonwealth was engaged, well, after... Nothing wrong with only fighting onky when your own interests are directly implicated, that's what we did too.

In WWII Canada was an actual Great Power in its own right. Canada did get a whole beach or two on D-Day.

Today, I'm not sure that Canada rates even with France in terms of actual military potential. France has an aircraft carrier, rusty as it is.

"France has an aircraft carrier, rusty as it is."

I thought they scrapped it?

John Morris wrote:"Canada is smaller than the US, but we are mighty."

IIRC, didn't the 700 troops Canada sent to Afghanistan just about exhaust the available numbers?

It clarifies things enormously to remember that Canada is a European country.

David had it right. It's the first thing that popped into my head, too. Up until Dec 7, 1941 it wasn't a "World War", it was just a widespread war.

It became a true World War only when the sleeping giant awakened and decided to put a stop to it.

Up until 08 December 1941, it was just a Pan-European war, with some of the battles being fought in European colonial territories (North Africa, Middle East) and with the paticipation of the UK's non-European possessions and allies (India, Canada, N.Z., Australia). And it really didn't even become that until the German attack on Soviet Union on 22 June 1941. It became a World War when Germany, in support of its Japanese allies, declared war on the US. That act tied all the various conflicts into one neat bundle.

Bush said "like the Second World War, our present conflict began..." [emphasis added]. And guess what Canucks, "our" said by an American President doesn't include you. That Canadians can get all upset about their own misunderstanding of a small statement likethis shows just how useless and irrelevant they've become (and probably a response to their realizing of this fact.)

The European phase of the war was decided before the US got in -- at almost the exact moment we got in, in fact.

But there was a lot of work yet to do, and Canada contributed more to the most important battle of the 1942-43 period, the Battle of the Atlantic, than the US was able to do.

You'd think former comrades in arms would be more generous to each other, or at least to share some fellow feelings.

The Nazis and Soviets would have fought to a draw absent US aid and then actual warfare.

Harry,

After listening to Canadian leadership for the past four years, I can only say "right back at ya"

& they aren't comrades--they're victims who periodically need our help to get off the hook. When we need them they're usually hiding our deserters or blocking us at the UN.

Historian A. J. P. Taylor, whom you may have heard of, pointed out that WW II had a ragged beginning and said that 7 December 1941 (not 1942, as someone said above) is as good a date for the start as any, since that's when it became a world war. Other possible starts: The Japanese attack on China or the Italian attack on Ethiopia.

(This was in his wildly controversial book on the origins of the WW II.)

On another subject: From everything I have read, Canadian troops performed magnificently in both world wars. We should not forget that just because the Canadians, like Americans, have many foolish academics.

Historians agree that WWII began on September 1, 1939 with the German invasion of Poland.

It did not begin when Britain and France declared war on September 3. It did not begin when Germany invaded the USSR on June 22, 1941. It did not begin when Japan invaded Manchuria on September 18, 1931 or when it invaded the rest of China in 1937. And it did not begin on December 7, 1941.

President Bush might have only misspoken, but this was not an offhand remark, but a prepared speech. To make such a mistake is bad. Not only because the other Allied belligerents are always touchy to what they think is American ignorance on this subject, but because the error speaks of Bush's general lack of concern over detail. Certainly the occupation in Iraq would be going better if he had paid more attention to it in his planning.

Chris:

See above.

Chris -- If you asked 100 Americans when WWII started, 37 would say "when the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor", 17 would say "December 7, 1941", 48 would say "December 7" but get the year wrong.

After a pause, 7 would then say, "You meant when did the US get into the war, right?"

"...they're victims who periodically need our help to get off the hook."

I've been victimized by that distorted Canadian history. Remind me exactly when it was you selfless angels got us ungrateful wretches off the hook.

Peter:

That is a very inconvenient question.

David:

"It clarifies things enormously to remember that Canada is a European country."

OK, let's give it a try:

Canada is a European country!
It's all about oil!
Canada is a European country!
It's all about oil!
Canada is...

Hey, you're right. It does clarify things enormously.

Actually, Peter, it was the Canadians (plus UK, Australia, NZ, SA, India, Greece, Yugoslavia and a few others) who get Orrin and us off the hook.

If it was going to be a draw between USSR and Germany, that was only because the British side drew off enough German power and delayed the attack on the USSR just long enough to make it near even.

If Pipes is right (and he probably is), whoever controls Moscow controls Russia.

it was a very near-run thing in December 1941 who controlled Moscow.

Without Canada, it would not have been the Russians, most likely.

We Yankees certainly didn't have anything to do with it.

You almost have to be a Nazi to think they could have controlled Russia.

Harry: The Canadians did very good work in WWII, but for what you're talking about, what they did -- undoubtedly valuable -- was help protect the ships bringing our Lend/Lease material to Russia.

David:

While feeding and supplying Britain with aircraft and just about everything else.

But, Harry, while I bask in the sentiments, I've never heard that Canada tipped the balance in Russia. I could be wrong, but I don't know that we actually sent them all that much, certainly nothing compared to the U.S., although you are right that we were heavily involved in the convoys to Mirmansk, surely one of the most execrable missions in the history of war. And boy, did the Russians ever treat everyone badly if they got through. Confined to ships, no credit, etc. But they were our allies, according to the elites, so our boys shut up and did their duty.

Sheesh. The USSR beat the Germans before it got any Lend-Lease.

What Britain and the Commonwealth (and Yugoslavia and Greece) did was tie down large German forces and delay the attack on Russia by about 6 weeks.

Either one, by itself, might not have helped. Both together brought the Germans up short of Moscow just when the cold started.

Finis.

Your belief they'd have won without Lend-Lease is a figment of that Stalinist imagination. Otherwise, a tragedy for all concerned, since tying the Nazis down in trying to administer Russia would have ruined them while they were wiping out the Bolsheviks for us.