Islam is perfectly compatible with liberal democracy.

Just so long as you don't particularly believe in it.

Yes, you were one of the haters I had in mind.

I beg your pardon.

If you believe in the inerrancy of the Quran, than you will be antagonistic to liberal democracy.

Just like some of Christ's preachings are very friendly towards Communistic thinking, scarcely a friend of liberal democracy.

Liberal democracy requires a dose of skepticism about some of what the Quran and Bible say.

You're very hung up on that Communism as Christianity deal--Christ said the opposite, we're personally obligated to share our wealth, not to structure a state that does it for us. If by friendly you just mean that both communism and Christianity believe the poor should be taken care of, then you're right and I too am Communistic.

"The poor you will always have with you - but you will not always have me". A bit selfish from the Deity? Or perhaps a statement that other things are more important than social service?

jim:

No, a statement that you can't get rid of poverty, only help the poor. Communists might have saved a couple hundred million lives if they'd only listened.

OJ:

A fully involved believer would forcefully reorganize society to produce the Christ directed end, whether society wanted to, or not.

Just as a fully involved believer would not suffer witches to live, despite liberal democracy's position that witchcraft is not a punishable offense.

Yes. What's your point. The first refers to society, not the state. The latter is simply a matter of what's trendy--we persecute white separatists and Islamicists now instead.

Well, I'm sticking to my prediction that Islam and liberal self-government will never co-exist stably.

Not because I hate (despise would be a better word) religion as such, but because Islam has a track record on governance.

I think that it is your co-religionists who are most active in doubting Islam's compatibility with democracy. Listen to Michael Medved sometime.

To Jeff's point, there is no reason that Islam cannot accomodate democracy, it just takes creative theology. Once Christianity was incompatible with democracy and capitalism, but times change, and so does Immutable Truth. As I've stated before, theology is an improvisational art form. Any good lawyer can find a justification for anything that his client did by a creative reading of the law books. So too, the theologist, starting with what he wants to justify, can approach his reading of the sacred texts in the same spirit.

Islam will accomodate democracy when enough Moslems want to live in a democracy. Where there is a will, they will find the Way.

Robert:

Jews, like Michael Medved, have obvious reasons for opposing Muslims. But it is worth noting that among those who are most passionate about democratizing the Middle East are other Jews, like Paul Wolfowitz.

Your point about Chriostianity is completely wrong--all democracy and capitalism are is the application of Christianity to politics and economics.

Robert:

Thank you for doing a far better job than I of conveying the point I was trying to make.

Given Christ's divine authority, one would think Christians would follow His teachings on giving and lending to the fullest extent: "If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell what thou hast, and give to the poor."

A truly Christian society would be one where no one owned or owed anything, and which would give any portion of its wealth to any individual or organization that asked for it.

A truly Christian society would be thoroughly adverse to capitalism. Unless, of course, Christians chose to believe the convenient bits, and leave out the rest. Kind of like Muslims are going to have to take a pass on signficant portions of the Quran if they want to take part in liberal democracy.

None of us are Christlike.

Jeff nailed that one. Jesus was pretty vague about most things, but when it came to capital, he left no doubt about it -- if you want to spend eternity with him, you gotta die broke.

Robert's point is akin to saying that when black becomes white, it will be white. Bassam Tibi has stated what ought to obvious to anyone -- Muslims are not interested in democracy.

They have what seems to them a superior alternative.

The notion that our superior wealth will change their minds will work for a few but not for the many, since they already have subscribed to a system that disdains wealth.

I have said before, and everything that happens confirms it, that infidels always underestimate the satisfaction Muslims feel in being Muslim.

Time will tell Harry. Certainly if the majority have no desire for democracy, as you state, it won't happen. But I don't think you can look at the entire Muslim world as a monolith in this regard. I don't think that Turkish Moslems feel the same way as Saudis. And there is no reason that they need to give up their sense of satisfaction at being Muslims for democracy, they can have both.

Jeff, thanks! And as you point out that Christians pick and choose the bits that confirm their own views, Muslims can do likewise. There are several parables in the New Testament where Jesus alludes to capitalistic behavior, like the one where the master gives money to each of his servants - one multiplies the money many fold, and the other buries it in the ground. I think that Jesus was using something that his followers knew, business, to point them in the direction that he wanted them to go, towards spiritual development. He wanted them to be spiritual capitalists, not monetary capitalists. But someone who sees monetary capitalism as a good will interpret these stories that way.

Robert:

You are right about the Turks. I have spent a fair amount of time in Turkey. If all Muslims were like the Turks, we would be sunning happily smack dab in the middle of the end of history.

Of course, it took a secularist, Attaturk, to bring about that state of affairs.

OJ:

Given the extent Christians follow that teaching, not only are they not Christ like, they aren't even trying.

Jeff:

No, we are trying--God just overestimated us.

Harry:

And, in fact, many Westerners who go there or study it end up going Islamic. But they don't stop being democrats. The two simply aren't incompatible in the long run.

Mr. Eager;

Muslims may have ascribed to a belief that eschews wealth yet they seem to seek it all the same.

True enough. And they seem to get around the clear injunction against banking, just as Christians did.

Nevertheless, there are some places they won't go. At least, so far they haven't.