Can't be a religion without heretics.

I have met Patrick on two occasions as he was a director of a company I was working for. The description of his philosophy is right on. The virulence of the attacks on him says a lot more about the attackers than Mr. Moore.

Thier deity is Gaia - the goddess of dirt...

M.Murcek:

Interesting point. One of the fascinating things about modern secularism is that it is so hostile to the Judeo-Christian faiths that it not only countenances, but positively welcomes, the irrational return to paganism. Gaia, Wicca, aboriginal deities, Celtic paganism, New Age, etc. are not only solemnly respected by the cognescenti but are seen by many as a mark of a higher level of spiritual meaning, much to be preferred to the boring old "man in the turned collar" telling you what to do. I suppose it is some kind of a sin to actually dream that one or another of these would actually take hold of the general population just to see the confused looks on the faces of tolerant secularists as they are about to be sacrificed to the sun god.

I live near Glastonbury, which is a weekend Mecca for the types who like to hide from the modern world in purple tie-dye smocks and clouds of incense.

Accordingly, the town is full of twee shops offering a wonderfully postmodern mish-mash of pagan tat, fairy books and Buddha statuettes.

I think "cognescenti" flatters the Gaia disciples: they're just superstitious.

I'm with Burke: "superstition is the religion of feeble minds."

I have yet to meet a secularist who doesn't think those people are loony, Peter. Try reading what "Skeptical Inquirer" has to say about them.

Maybe it's different in Canada.

As for Moore, the ghost of Eric Hofer walks.

What Harry said.

Harry:

If you mean the incense and tie-die crowd Brit was referring to, you are right, but don't tell me Gaia and Wicca and aboriginal mythologies aren't respectable in many quarters. Why, I know a brilliant secularist who has a real bee in his bonnet about the horrible things done to witches in the past. He seems determined to single-handedly vindicate them.

Have you been to see Riverdance? Dance to Woman's Power, Dance to Man's Strength, Dance to the Harvest God, etc., etc. Repetitive nonsense, but just listen to the chattering classes swoon during intermission.

Riverdance-- every so often the local PBS stations will play these incessently. When I accidentally see bits of the show all I can thinks is, "There's not much one can do when every dacer is wearing a back brace."

Are you sure that your secularist doesn't just have a bee in his bonnet because of the horrible things they did to some poor lasses accused of witchcraft?

Or does he actually believe in witches?

Brit:

I can't tell anymore. He seems to be under a spell.

Spent time listening to Saruman, or did he somehow acquire this Nifty New Ring?

The witch persecution was the worst crime in history, far worse than anything Stalin did, because the Church carefully taught the people it claimed to have under its charge to believe the nonsense, then tortured and murdered them for believing it.

Stalin, at least, skipped that first step.

My village is overrun with wiccans, vegans, crystal gazers and a host of weird cults you probably never heard of, Peter.

But they are not secularists. Certainly they are not rationalists or scientists. They are, as they cannot stop telling me, highly evolved, spiritual persons.

It may not be your religion, but it's religion.

"Skeptical Inquirer" was founded by the same guy who is behind "Free Inquiry" and the secular humanist manifesto.

You're just wrong on the facts.

Harry:

You've read Keith Thomas, as I recall. Why then do you believe "magic" & "witchcraft" didn't exist?

I've read a whole lot more than Thomas. I've read Lea and the Malleus and on and on.

Witchcraft was invented by the Dominicans. Until they taught their charges to believe it, nobody imagined he was flying through the air on a goat to kiss the fundament of Satan.

You are big on Original Sin. Here's your chance to encounter a genuine Original Sin.

So are you just differentiating Satanism from witchcraft?

I think he is trying to differentiate Satanism from Stalinism. I still can't quite figure out which he admires more.

I am identifying the Christian witch persecutions as a cynical crime, the most cynical in all history.

We don't burn people at the stake for being nervous around black cats today, but as far as I can see, you could not create a consistent reason to object if somebody proposed to do so.

Harry:

"My village is overrun with wiccans, vegans, crystal gazers and a host of weird cults you probably never heard of, Peter."

Undoubtedly. But didn't you tell us just a few months ago that the Assembly of God was sweeping the county and was well on its way to imposing theocratic rule? Sounds like we're gonna see some action there soon.

Harry:

Eureka! I just got it. Because you think the crime was cynical, it qualifies as history's worst. Hitler and Stalin are redeemed by their sincerity, right?

Harry:

Yes, we should persecute Satanists and Wiccans. What's your point?

"I suppose it is some kind of a sin to actually dream that one or another of these would actually take hold of the general population just to see the confused looks on the faces of tolerant secularists as they are about to be sacrificed to the sun god."

I guess it would be a sin for the secularist to dream the same thing, just to see the confused looks on the faces of smug Christians as they are about to be burned at the stake for heresy.

Robert:

No, that's the important difference. For the religious it is a sin--for the secularists it's just a happy thought.

Peter, I never said the Assemblies of God are sweeping the country. That's Orrin's trope.

I've said, which is true, that Assembly of God has by far the biggest congregation in my county, and I think that's true in many communities. But they're nowhere near the biggest religion and they aren't growing as fast as the Mormons.