February 10, 2004
THE DEVIL'S HARLEQUIN:
A Passion for Evolution: a review of A Devil's Chaplain: Reflections on Hope, Lies, Science, and Love
by Richard Dawkins (H. Allen Orr, February 26, 2004, NY Review of Books)
Dawkins has spent much of his career defending a particular view of Darwinism. This so-called selfish gene view grew out of work in the 1960s by George Williams and William Hamilton. While Darwin argued that evolution involves a kind of survival of the fittest, Hamilton, Williams, and their heirs argued that it's the fittest gene that matters, not the fittest organism. To see what this means, consider an example. When a small bird spots a hawk overhead it will often issue an alarm call, warning its flock-mates of the predator's presence. The odd thing is that this behavior—which we'll assume is instinctive, that is, genetically based—is "altruistic." By sounding the alarm, a bird may well save its flock-mates but it simultaneously calls attention to itself, increasing the odds that it will be attacked by the hawk. How could such a behavior evolve?If you think of Darwinism in traditional terms—as competition among different organisms—the answer isn't obvious. A bird who sounds a call (and so perhaps gets eaten) is unlikely to have more offspring than a bird who keeps quiet (and so probably avoids getting eaten). And having more offspring is what Darwinism was supposed to be all about. But if you think of Darwinism in selfish gene terms— as competition among different genes —the answer is clearer. A gene that makes a bird emit an alarm may decrease the odds that the calling bird survives but it can increase the odds that the gene for alarm-calling survives. The reason is that the flock-mates who are saved by the alarm are, like all flock-mates, likely to be related to the caller; and relatives, by definition, tend to carry the same genes, including the gene for sounding the alarm. In effect, then, the alarm-call gene is warning—and saving— copies of itself. Those copies just happen to reside in other organisms. The counterintuitive conclusion is that a gene that sometimes causes an organism to sacrifice itself can increase its frequency by natural selection. The alternative kind of gene—one for not emitting an alarm call—can decrease in frequency, since such genes are on average less likely to be passed on to the next generation.
To Dawkins and other advocates of the selfish gene view, such examples reveal something deep about Darwinism: natural selection acts at the level of competing genes, not competing organisms. It is genes that are engaged in a struggle for existence and we can, therefore, expect them to "selfishly" do whatever they can to increase their representation in the next generation. (The quotes emphasize that genes are not consciously selfish; it's just that their dynamics look like those of consciously selfish agents.) In the end, the selfish gene view suggests that the properties we see in organisms are those that maximized the survival of genes, not the welfare of organisms. Taken to its logical conclusion, genes begin to seem like manipulators who build organisms in whatever way best serves the genes' "interests," whether or not these coincide with the organisms' interests. Indeed Dawkins spoke of organisms as mere "vehicles" for genes or as "lumbering robots" that were "blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes." It was this view that he popularized in his first book, The Selfish Gene, and that he continues to defend, though in modified form, in A Devil's Chaplain.
A New Religion (David Stove)
Dolphins and some other animals have lately turned out to be more intelligent than was formerly thought, and present-day computers are capable of some amazing things. Still, if the question is asked, what are the most intelligent and all-round-capable things on earth, the answer is obvious: human beings. Everyone knows this, except certain religious people. A person is certainly a believer in some religion if be thinks, for example, that there are on earth millions of invisible and immortal nonhuman beings which are far more intelligent and capable than we are.But that is exactly what sociobiologists do think, about genes. Sociobiology, then, is a religion: one which has genes as its gods.
Yet this conclusion seems incredible. Was not religion banished from biological science a long time ago? Why, yes. And is not sociobiology a part of biological science (even if a very new part, and a controversial one)? No. Sociobiologists really are committed to genes being gods, as I will show in a moment.
But first consider the following. We would all say, because we all know it to be true, that calculating-machines, automobiles, screwdrivers and the like, are just tools or devices which are designed, made, and manipulated by human beings for their own ends. Now, you cannot say this without implying that human beings are more intelligent and capable than calculators, automobiles, screwdrivers, etc. For if we designed and made something as intelligent and capable as ourselves, or more so, it would be precisely not just a tool which we could manipulate for our own ends: it would have ends of its own, and be at least as good at achieving those ends, too, as we are at achieving ours. Similarly, suppose someone says that human beings and all other organisms are just tools or devices designed, made and manipulated by so-and-so’s for their own ends. Then he implies that so-and-so’s are more intelligent and capable than human beings.
With that in mind, consider the following representative statements made by leading sociobiologists. Richard Dawkins, easily the best-known spokesman for this movement, writes that ‘we are . . . robot-vehicles blindly programmed to preserve the selfish molecules known as genes', and again that we are ‘manipulated to ensure the survival of [our] genes’. The same writer also says that ‘the fundamental truth [is] that an organism is a tool of DNA’. (That is, of the DNA molecules which are the organism’s genes.) Again, Dawkins says that living organisms exist for the benefit of DNA’. Similarly, E. O. Wilson, an equal or higher sociobiological authority, says that ‘the individual organism is only the vehicle [of genes], part of an elaborate device to preserve and spread them…The organism is only DNA’s way of making more DNA’.
I will mention in a moment some other passages in which sociobiologists imply that genes are beings of more-than-human intelligence and power, but that implication should be clear enough already from the passages just quoted. According to the Christian religion, human beings and all other created things exist for the greater glory of God; according to sociobiology, human beings and all other living things exist for the benefit of their genes. The expression ‘their genes' is probably not perfectly orthodox, from the strict sociobiological point of view; being rather too apt to suggest that genes are part of our equipment, whereas (according to sociobiology) we are part of theirs. All the same, the religious implication is unmistakable: that there exist, in us and around us, beings to whom we stand in the same humble relation as calculators, cars, and screwdrivers stand in to us.
It must be admitted that sociobiologists sometimes say other things which are inconsistent with statements like the ones I have just quoted. Dawkins, for example, sometimes protests that he does not at all believe that genes are 'conscious, purposeful agents’. But these disclaimers are in vain. Of course genes are not conscious purposeful agents: everyone will agree with that. Where sociobiologists differ from other people is just that they also say, over and over again, things which imply that genes are conscious purposeful agents; and agents, at that, of so much intelligence and power that human beings are merely among the tools they make and use.
It is in Richard Dawkins’ book, The Extended Phenotype, that the apotheosis of genes has been carried furthest. Manipulation is the central idea of this book (as the author himself acknowledges), and more specifically, manipulation by genes. Genes are here represented as manipulating, in their own interest, not only the bodies and behaviour of the organisms in which they sit, but just about everything under the sun.
Genes manipulate external objects. For example, spider-genes (not spiders) manipulate webs, termite-genes (not termites) manipulate mud to make their mounds, beaver-genes (not beavers) manipulate logs and water to make a dam, and so on. Action at a distance, something which is usually considered to be difficult or impossible, is no trouble at all to genes. No job is too big for them, either: beaver-genes can easily build a lake miles wide. Genes also manipulate the behaviour of other organisms, and the victims of their manipulation need not at all be of the same species as the organisms which carry the manipulating genes.
For example, a certain kind of cuckoo deposits its egg among the eggs laid by a reed-warbler. Once the eggs hatch, the exceptionally loud begging-cry of the young cuckoo, and its exceptionally colourful 'gape’, induce the parent reed-warblers to give it more food than they give to their own young. According to Dawkins, this is a case of the genes of the cuckoo-parents manipulating the behaviour of reed-warbler parents, to the advantage of the former and the disadvantage of the latter.
Now, think what this kind of description commits the user of it to. Just as maternity implies parenthood but not conversely, so manipulation implies causal influence but not conversely. The moon causally influences the tides, but it cannot manipulate them. Even if causal influence results in some advantage to the influencing agent, that is still not enough to constitute manipulation. If you and I are competing to catch the greater number of fish from our boat, and I by accident knock you overboard, then I influence your behaviour but do not manipulate it, even though your mishap improves my chances of winning the competition. To constitute manipulation, there must be the element of intended purposeful causal influence.
Most biologists would see, in a case like nest-parasitism, nothing more than an extremely complex example of causal influence. They might ascribe to the genes of the cuckoo exactly the same causal influence as sociobiologists do. What distinguishes the sociobiologist’s description of the case is his insistence that those genes are manipulating the reed-warblers’ behaviour for their own benefit. Well, cuckoos do benefit, and reed-warblers lose, by nest-parasitism. But, as we just saw in the boat case, causal influence plus resulting advantage are not enough to constitute manipulation. The causal influence must also be purposeful or intended. But is that condition satisfied in this case?
If the nest-parasitism of cuckoos is a case of manipulation, it is certainly a staggeringly-clever one: far too clever for cuckoos, in particular, to be capable of. Can a cuckoo have a purpose as complicated as that of it-feeds-its-own-young? That must be extremely doubtful. Still, let us suppose that a cuckoo is clever enough for that. He would need to be cleverer still, to be able to think up a way of achieving this purpose. In particular, could he think up a way of achieving it which did not involve any cuckoo’s ever going even within a mile of a reed-warbler? No: there is no one who will credit cuckoos with so great an intellectual feat. Yet even if a cuckoo could manage that part too, the hardest job would still lie ahead of him. For he would need, not just to have this brilliant idea, but to be able to implement it. But how is a cuckoo to do whatever engineering is required? He has no hope. Manipulative ability of any kind is not highly developed in birds, and cuckoos are distinctly below the bird-average in this respect. After all, hardly any of them can even build a nest.
But the feat of manipulation in question would not only be too hard for cuckoos: it would be too hard for us.
Demons and Dawkins (D. C. Stove, Darwinian Fairytales)
DAWKINS MORE THAN once assures his readers that when he says genes are selfish, he is not nonsensically attributing to them a certain psychological or "subjective" character. He does not mean, he says, that genes are "conscious, purposeful agents." Applied to genes, the language of selfishness is "only a figure of speech." But he finds it a help in conveying to his readers, what he believes to be literally true, that organisms are simply vehicles which genes design, build, and manipulate, as part of the longer term process of increasing the number of their own copies. Anyway, he says, calling genes "selfish" cannot be importantly wrong, because it is dispensible. We could always "translate [it] back into respectable terms if we wanted to."The sense in which he uses the word "selfish," Dawkins writes, is one which is standard in biology, and which is "behavioral, not subjective." It is this. "An entity, such as a baboon, is said to be altruistic if it behaves in such a way as to increase another entity's welfare at the expense of its own. Selfish behavior has exactly the opposite effect. 'Welfare' is defined as 'chances for survival'..."
It is true that this is the standard sense in which neo-Darwinian biologists use the words "selfish" and "altruistic" respectively. It is also true (as we saw in Essay VI) that it is a problem or worse for neo-Darwinism (as for Darwinism) how altruistic behavior could survive and spread in any population of animals. But let all organisms be as selfish as the extremest neo-Darwinian cares to suppose: that would still not justify anyone calling genes, as distinct from organisms, selfish.
Yet Dawkins says he uses the word "selfish" in the behavioral sense (as we have just seen), and he will have it that genes are selfish. But what connection is there, between selfishness in the behavioral sense, and that feature of genes on which everything in The Selfish Gene turns: their self-replicatory propensity? To justify his calling genes selfish in the behavioral sense, Dawkins would need to show that self-replication increases the self-replicators chances of survival. But how on earth could he, or anyone, possibly make that out?
My identical twin, or a laboratory-made replica of myself (as I pointed out earlier), is not a possible object of my selfishness, in the ordinary psychological sense of "selfishness." But suppose that I am myself Superscientist, and that I manufacture my own replica or twin. Have I then done something selfish, even in the behavioral sense of "selfish"? Have I improved my own chances of survival at the expense of the chances of others?
It is perfectly obvious that I have not. The coming into existence of a perfect copy of myself might, just conceivably, tickle my vanity. But it would not remove one year or one second from my age, or lighten, by however little, the burden of my present or future illnesses or other affliction. My age, health, wealth, and prospects would be just what they were before I conjured up my replica. Any rational insurance company, and any rational person, would tell you the same thing. And since I have not increased my own chances of survival, I have certainly not done so at the expense of anyone else's chances.
Equally plainly, the same is true for genes. By making a copy of itself, a gene certainly does not gratify its selfishness in the ordinary sense of the word, since (as I said earlier) genes cannot be selfish in that sense. But neither does it do anything selfish in the behavioral sense. Self-replication would even seem (to a layman such as myself) rather to worsen a gene's chances of survival, since it must use up a sizable part of its limited energy store. But even if that is merely a layman's misunderstanding, it seems obvious enough that a gene, by self-replicating, does not improve its own chances of survival. (Its replica is not going to look after the parent gene in its old age, for example.) Which is to say, that the self-replication of a gene is not selfish, even in the sense in which Dawkins says he is using that word.
At this point, however, Dawkins would remind me that "the selfish gene... is not just one physical bit of DNA... it is all replicas of a particular bit of DNA, distributed throughout the world." What a gene does by self-replicating, he says, is to benefit "itself in the form of copies of itself." "The gene is a long-lived replicator, existing in the form of many duplicate copies" of itself.
There: you have just witnessed how Dawkins made out the case on which his whole book depends. How he managed, that is, to represent the self-replication of genes as being selfish in the behavioral sense. Well, there is nothing to it, really, once you have seen how the thing is worked. All you need to do is to talk about things which exist in the form of other things, and more specifically about things which exist in the form of copies of themselves; and the job is done.
One of the reasons that Darwinists are so enjoyable to observe in action is because in their ceaseless quest to deny intelligent design they are always forced to analogies that specifically rely upon the functioning of intelligence, only they attribute such intelligence to Nature itself, rather than to a Creator.
MORE:
Stove's Anti-Darwinism (James Franklin, Royal Institute of Philosophy)
[I]t is uncontroversial to assert that Darwinism is a logically complex theory, and that its relation to empirical evidence is distant and multi-faceted. One does not directly observe chance genetic variations leading to the development of new species, or even continuous variations in the fossil record, but must rely on subtle arguments to the best explanation, scaling up from varieties to species, and so on. The strength or otherwise of these arguments, individually and collectively, is a purely logical question. It is therefore no answer to Stove's attack on Darwinism to sermonise, as Blackburn does, about how disgraceful it is for philosophers to delve in matters that do not concern them. Marxists, or Freudians, or astrologers, or phrenologists are not allowed to 'answer' philosophers' doubts about the relation of their theories to the evidence by saying, 'Trust me, I'm a doctor'. Evolutionists have no such rights either.Posted by Orrin Judd at February 10, 2004 8:10 PMStove's article listed ten propositions that were, he claimed, asserted by Darwinians, and indeed were characteristic of Darwinian theory, but were obviously false. The statements are all universal generalizations - 'every organism has as many descendants as it can'; 'all communication is manipulation of signal-receiver by signal-sender'; 'in every species child-mortality is extremely high', and the like. To answer Stove, it would be initially natural to claim that the 'all' in these statements was not seriously meant. But, obviously, that would be to fall into Stove's trap, since his claim is precisely that Darwinians save their theory by weakening contentful assertions they appear to have made. If they don't mean 'all', why do they say it, if not to dress up a logically flabby theory as much more falsifiable than it is?
Yet this is exactly the strategy Blackburn uses in attempting to refute Stove. The problem is most evident in his answer at the point where he thinks Stove has most grossly misrepresented the Darwinians. Stove listed as one of the 'Darwinian falsities':
…no one is prepared to sacrifice his life for any single person, but ... everyone will sacrifice it (for) more than two brothers, or four half-brothers, or eight first-cousins.
Blackburn points out that the original quote began, 'To express the matter more vividly, in the world of our model organisms, whose behaviour is determined strictly by genotype, we expect to find that no one is prepared to sacrifice his life for any single person, but that everyone ...' He is then much scandalized at Stove's omission of the phrase 'in the world of our model organisms', and treats this correction as a full answer to Stove.
But this does not help the Darwinian evade Stove's attack. What is the point of 'model organisms' unless they model organisms? As Blackburn himself says, 'Hamilton went on to apply the model to solve a famous problem for Darwinian theory: how it can be that in species of hymenoptera, sterile workers exist?' If Hamilton is speaking about a purely mathematical world of model organisms, then he has said nothing about biological evolution, while if real organisms satisfy the assumptions of the model, then there can be no objection to taking the predictions of the model as literally asserted of the organisms. It was a point not lost on Stove, who wrote:
It is true I have omitted a qualification which Hamilton prefixed to the words just quoted: namely, '... in the world of our model organisms, whose behaviour is determined strictly by genotype .'. But Professor Hamilton could hardly object to this omission. For his disciples such as Dawkins constantly do the same thing: that is, read off the results of Hamilton's 'model', as being true descriptions of biological reality. No doubt the reason is, that they believe that the proviso - behaviour being determined strictly by genotype - is satisfied everywhere in fact.
If Stove is to be criticized for omitting the words of others, it is fair to ask that others criticize him only after having all his own words on the subject to hand.
Of course, it is perfectly true that models do not fit real cases perfectly, and a degree of looseness of fit has to be allowed to any theory. But there is little comfort for Darwinians in this line of thought. To the extent that organisms do satisfy the model, to that extent failure of the predictions tells against the theory; and to the extent that organisms do not satisfy the model, to that extent Darwinians are asserting something apparently contentful, then withdrawing it under pressure. And this particular model would be ill-advised to compare itself with respectable mathematical models. In a case like Newton's theory of gravity, there is a clear sense of numerical approximation, and the predictions of the theory can be measured to be true to within so many percent. Nothing could be further from the situation that obtains with Hamilton's 'prediction'. It is not as if the model predicts that animals will sacrifice themselves for 8 first cousins, whereas observation shows the true figure is 8.3. The truth is more, as Stove says, that a robin red breast cannot tell the difference between his first cousin and a bit of red wool on a wire.
Metaphors are not analogies, and nothing I have seen come out of Dawkins requires intelligence or plan of any kind, just variation and inheritence.
Posted by: Jeff Guinn at February 10, 2004 10:24 PM"A gene that makes a bird emit an alarm"
"It is genes that are engaged in a struggle for existence and we can, therefore, expect them to "selfishly" do whatever they can to increase their representation in the next generation."
"Taken to its logical conclusion, genes begin to seem like manipulators who build organisms in whatever way best serves the genes' "interests," "
Posted by: oj at February 10, 2004 10:43 PMStove's critique isn't even wrong; it's irrefutable by virtue of its very incoherence. What is he talking about?
The only question is, "Are things that make more things like them likely to become common relative to those that do not?" And the answer, almost tautologically, is "Yes." What is there to even debate here?
Posted by: mike earl at February 10, 2004 10:53 PMThe belief that genes "make"* things.
* To bring into existence by shaping, modifying, or putting together material; construct:
Posted by: oj at February 10, 2004 11:09 PMDawkins disengenous modus oparandi, which Stove (who thought Darwin one of the greatest thinkers of all time) bludgeons with his usual brilliance, is to describe ordinary biological concepts in language that has sensational connatations. When what is implied from his language is challenged, he claims he was only being metaphorical, and retreats to a standard description of biology. This method has made Dawkins famous and a best selling author, but has also puts him in the ridiculous position of denying his own books. So he writes in the Selfish Gene that human beings are nothing more than "machines designed to reproduce our selfish genes", that that is "all we are" and that this is a "shocking truth". Then he will say in interviews "I am very comfortable with the idea that we can override biology with free will. Indeed, I encourage people all the time to do it."
http://www.meta-library.net/transcript/dawk-body.html
Posted by: Carter at February 11, 2004 12:15 AMI'm sorry, but Stove really is hopeless on darwinism. It's almost embarrassing.
Here's his irrefutable classic:
http://www.royalinstitutephilosophy.org/articles/stove_darwinian.htm
and here's the classic refutation:
http://www.royalinstitutephilosophy.org/articles/stove_darwinian.htm
Posted by: Brit at February 11, 2004 5:50 AMI particularly enjoy the way Stove carefully, carefully, tries to avoid the literal/teleological semantic trap by stating:
"Dawkins more than once assures his readers that when he says genes are selfish, he is not nonsensically attributing to them a certain psychological or "subjective" character. He does not mean, he says, that genes are "conscious, purposeful agents."[4] Applied to genes, the language of selfishness is "only a figure of speech."[5]
And then, gloriously, jumps straight into the trap in his very next sentence:
"But he finds it a help in conveying to his readers, what he believes to be literally true, that organisms are simply vehicles which genes design, build, and manipulate, as part of the longer term process of increasing the number of their own copies."
Oh dear.
Here's what the Dawkins actually believes to be literally true:
1) genes self-replicate (uncontroversial if you have any interest in genetics)
2) genes, and combinations of these, influence certain behaviours and physical characteristics (uncontroversial)
3) some of these behaviours and characteristics are more consistent with survival than others (not especially controversial)
4) these facts are sufficient to explain most of evolution (quite controversial!)
sorry, although Stove's article is indeed self-defeating, the classic refutuation is actually here:
http://www.royalinstitutephilosophy.org/articles/blackburn_darwinian.htm
Posted by: Brit at February 11, 2004 6:27 AMThe Blackburn is so humiliating I thought I'd do you the favor of not posting it--from acknowledging that Darwinism has no predictive capacity, which makes it not a science to acknowledging the absence of population pressure to himself dismissing Dawkins, there's nothing left of modern Darwinism by the time his "defense" is done.
Posted by: oj at February 11, 2004 8:25 AMarf.
Posted by: Brit at February 11, 2004 8:28 AMBrit:
The trap is Stove's point--you (and Dawkins and all others) both want to claim there is no teleology and then your case states there is one. For altruism claims not that genes self-replicate but that they sacrifice themselves (really their hosts) in order that other genes get a chance to replicate. It is, in fact, your points 2 and 3 that make 4 untenable.
Posted by: oj at February 11, 2004 8:29 AMthe trap is that of ascribing teleology to the theory. there is no teleology in the theory.
the point of the models is to show that it is possible, through aimless, non-teleological processes, for altruistic organisms to become more prevalent in populations than purely self-interested organisms.
Posted by: Brit at February 11, 2004 8:38 AMYour claim is that genes do have an aim--to try and preserve copies of themselves.
Posted by: oj at February 11, 2004 8:44 AMno. (for the millionth time?)
the claim is that genes self-replicate and some happen to be successful and some do not.
the 'try and preserve copies of themselves' is a metaphor.
the fact that you can post that last statement shows that you still haven't grasped the basic non-teleology of the theory.
Posted by: Brit at February 11, 2004 8:48 AMBrit:
Your metaphor is your belief. The incapacity to explain it on its own terms demonstrates its true nature. But there's nothing wrong with having blind faith in something unreasonable--we all do. Yours is just a different religion than mine.
Posted by: oj at February 11, 2004 8:56 AMwhat 'incapacity to explain it on its own terms'?
i've just done exactly that:
"genes self-replicate and some happen to be successful and some do not."
the metaphors are Dawkins', not mine.
I spend most of my time here obliterating his teleological metaphors and I'm starting to think Dawkins should be made to rewrite his bloody books for the literal-minded!
In altruism a gene does not replicate itself but allows another to do so.
Posted by: oj at February 11, 2004 9:05 AM"the point of the models is to show that it is possible"
And then, of course, if it is possible, it must be probable and if probable, it must be true. QED.
Gack! Ain't logic wonnerfullllllllllllll
Posted by: Uncle Bill at February 11, 2004 9:27 AMUncle:
Dawkins has to be right that no intelligence guides evolution, he set up a model and ran it on his computer and got exactly the results we see around us. See how different that is from Creation?
Posted by: oj at February 11, 2004 9:32 AM"in altruism a gene does not replicate itself but allows another to do so"
no. in an instance of self-sacrifice a gene does not replicate itself.
as somebody famous once said: "you weren't a philosophy major, were you?"
Posted by: Brit at February 11, 2004 9:44 AMMea culpa
I accept your disproof of Darwinism in place of my own.
Posted by: oj at February 11, 2004 9:55 AMarf. you wouldn't know a disproof of Darwinism if it flashed you at the Superbowl
Posted by: Brit at February 11, 2004 9:56 AMPersonally, I find it more helpful - if you must do such a thing at all - to think of all copies of a particular gene as a single, selfish, distributed organism. Dawkin's point is a refutation of the claim that 'darwinism' can't account for altruistic behavior, by pointing out that we find it at levels where evolution is acting indirectly.
And I still can't figure out what the heck Stove is talking about... but maybe I always saw the math directly and not the anthropomophization.
Posted by: Mike Earl at February 11, 2004 10:18 AM"1) genes self-replicate (uncontroversial if you have any interest in genetics)
2) genes, and combinations of these, influence certain behaviours and physical characteristics (uncontroversial)
3) some of these behaviours and characteristics are more consistent with survival than others (not especially controversial)"
" in an instance of self-sacrifice a gene does not replicate itself."
Out of the mouths of babes...
Posted by: oj at February 11, 2004 10:19 AMMike:
Vice Versa. You've so anthropomorphized it that the math with always add up. As witness your imagining genes as a single selfish being.
Posted by: oj at February 11, 2004 10:26 AMlike i said, OJ, you weren't a philosophy major, were you.
in an instance of self-sacrifice a gene would not replicate itself.
did i say that in order for altruism to become prevalent in a population organisms must be so arranged that they sacrifice themselves at every given opportunity? no.
i said it is possible for self-replicating altruistic genes to become more prevalent in populations than purely self-interested ones. the models demonstrate this possibility.
i'm really sorry, oj, but i've had to come to terms with the fact that you just show any signs of having the aptitude to grasp this kind of stuff. this ain't your specialist subject, as it were. stick to the frog-bashing.
Posted by: Brit at February 11, 2004 10:33 AMal·tru·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ltr-zm)
n.
1. Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.
OJ:
No. I did the math, and then found an anthropomorphism to match it as a shorthand; an accounting fiction to provide a frame of reference in which complex patterns become simplified. The math is the math, and cares not how we explain it.
Posted by: Mike Earl at February 11, 2004 11:37 AM"an accounting fiction to provide a frame of reference in which complex patterns become simplified"
Exactly--these are just the stories we tell ourselves.
Posted by: oj at February 11, 2004 11:44 AMMike
You're wasting your time. In this particular instance, OJ is just not able to distinguish the categories. He just can't tell the difference between the metaphor that explains the theory, and the theory itself.
And its no good yelling at or blaming OJ for this. We have to accept that the anthropomorphisms and metaphors - which make the theory easy to understand for some people - cause confusion for a lot of other people.
I've spelt out the theory of natural selection in painfully careful, non-teleological, non-metaphorical language. Yet still he uses a literal interpretation of the metaphors which I'm not using to scoff at the theory!
In OJ's case, we must hold our hands up and admit that Dawkins has inadvertently done more harm than good when it comes to explanation.
Posted by: Brit at February 11, 2004 11:54 AMBrit:
The problem is that I'm a Rationalist and you guys aren't. I know that it's all metaphor.
Posted by: oj at February 11, 2004 12:34 PMLet's assume that there is such a thing as a genetically mediated behavior pattern. That pattern will vary across a population.
Let's further assume that one variant of that pattern includes reflexively squawking when a predator arrives.
If, as a result of that squawking, fewer members of the population containing this variation die due to predation--some unwittingly self sacrifice, but on average, the predators are less successful due to this reaction--than other populations not containing this variation, then over time, this genetically mediated behavior will become more predominant.
It is a simple matter of statistics--unfortunately, that can leave the numerically challenged out in the cold. Even a small difference in predator success can cause such a behavior to predominate.
The genetically mediated behavior gives the appearance of altruism, but in reality it is the result of nothing more than statistics.
Posted by: Jeff Guinn at February 11, 2004 12:34 PMLet's assume I have a million dollars. I'kll trade you my million dollars for just one thousand of yours?
Posted by: oj at February 11, 2004 12:40 PMStove is being willfully obtuse. It is quite obvious from reading the Selfish Gene that Dawkins identifies the gene at the level of the sequence, not in any one individual copy of that sequence. Think of it as a song. A "selfish" song wants to be played and heard as widely and as often as possible. It doesn't matter how many cd's are burned, copied or destroyed, or if the song is digitized, uploaded, downloaded or recorded to tape or vinyl. The medium is not the song, neither is it the gene. If the song can extend its life by having all of its vinyl representations destroyed and re-mastered onto a wav file, then it will do so.
Posted by: Robert D at February 11, 2004 12:49 PM"a song wants" adequately proves Stove's point.
Posted by: oj at February 11, 2004 12:56 PMOJ:
But some stories are useful because they explain why things happen in a manner we can understand. As a friend's engineering professor once said, "All models are wrong, but some are useful."
Mike:
But as Darwinists always tell us, it's not predictive, just a historical narrative. So it's useless.
Posted by: oj at February 11, 2004 1:31 PMJust like plate tectonics, which is completely historical and non-predictive.
That doesn't make it wrong, though.
Saying that metaphorical shorthand proves Stove's point only proves a single minded unwillingness to translate a metaphor into the concepts it represents.
Posted by: Jeff Guinn at February 11, 2004 5:23 PMJeff:
I'll bet you that million dollars that the plates shift again.
Posted by: oj at February 11, 2004 5:30 PMOJ:
In what direction? How far? How fast? When?
Your bet is just as predictive as telling someone stock prices are going to change.
The market will go up.
Posted by: oj at February 11, 2004 10:33 PMheh heh...i told you you were wasting your time!
Posted by: Brit at February 12, 2004 3:59 AMWho but a kazillionaire could waste so much time arguing Darwinian theology with the zealots?
Posted by: oj at February 12, 2004 8:00 AMYour version of argument is far too reminiscent of Monty Python's argument clinic: "Argument is not the automatic gainsaying of anything the other side just said..."
BTW: scientific theories are judged by their ability to explain observations, not as to whether they are predictive. Just thought you might like to know.
Posted by: Jeff Guinn at February 12, 2004 1:20 PMFalse.
“Any sound scientific theory, whether of time or of any other concept, should in my opinion be based on the most workable philosophy of science: the positivist approach put forward by Karl Popper and others. According to this way of thinking, a scientific theory is a mathematical model that describes and codifies the observations we make. A good theory will describe a large range of phenomena on the basis of a few simple postulates and will make definite predictions that can be tested… .” (The Universe In a Nutshell , p31)
Posted by: oj at February 12, 2004 1:35 PMSorry, you are wrong--and so is his opinion. If I get a chance to go by the library today, I will provide an informed quote that shows how incomplete this view is.
The counter example is plate tectonics. It completely encompasses a large range of phenomena based on very few postulates. However, except by observation it is not testable, and, except in the most trivial sense, it is not in the least predictive.
Yet, except for Bible literalists, you will have to look long and hard to find anyone who doesn't consider plate tectonics sound science.
Posted by: Jeff Guinn at February 12, 2004 2:50 PMEver heard of a seismograph?
Posted by: oj at February 12, 2004 3:07 PMYes, I have. I have also heard of tape measures and watches.
What does a seismograph predict, or test?
For that matter, what does geology or biology predict?
Posted by: Jeff Guinn at February 12, 2004 6:33 PMA scientific theory makes testable predictions about what will and will not be observed. E.g. geology predicts that the Indian subcontinent won't suddenly head south; biology predicts that no mammalian fossils will be found in Paleozoic strata.
Posted by: Bill Woods at February 15, 2004 4:56 AM