Your analysis is one reason I always go to BroJudd blog first and foremost, even before the great Glensta-Pundit.



I want Israel to survive and thrive as a home for the Jewish people and an outpost of sanity in a psychotic neighborhood.



Which is why I cannot bear their apparent desire to commit suicide by demographics (a topic familiar to any Judd-blogger).



Israel will DIE... if they do not cut the Paleos loose, build a wall to the moon if necessary, and go to their pizza palors in peace, and let the Palestinians.... live, die, thrive, rot... who cares, they aren't (or SHOULDN'T BE) Israel's problem any more. Europeans love them, make them THEIR problem. Why the Israelis relentlessly insist on clutching this diseased population to their bosom is one of life's great mysteries to me. But they do, and it will kill them.



And I scream about this on other blogs, and watch my words bounce off people's heads like hail, while they give me clear and cogent reasons why I'm wrong.... the same damn clear and cogent reasons we have been hearing for 50 g--d--mn years that haven't solved a frigging thing.



Time (well, soon time) for Bush to lay down the law. Are you part of "the West"? Then you are so without that political Chernobyl you call the West Bank/Gaza. Wanna keep the territories? Then do so on your own. The problems you choose to maintain as problems will not be our problems any longer.



Look West.... or look East. But choose wisely, and do so now, because it's crunch time.



Don't blow it.

I suppose that's one possible way out of the current "logjam." It does sound so utterly logical.



But given the Iraq-Palestine nexus (regarding mutual support, aims, and motivation), and the fact that the Palestinians' problem with Israel has to do with Israel's existence, Israeli withdrawal and building a wall to the moon (any other votes for a new Maginot line?) will, in spite of one's best intentions and heartfelt pleas, result in either:



1. Continued Palestinian (and friends) military buildup and attacks to weaken and destroy Israel (unsuccessful and ongoing);



2. Continued Palestinian (and friends) military buildup and attacks to weaken and destroy Israel (successful);



3. Continued Palestinian (and friends) military buildup and attacks to weaken and destroy Israel (resulting in an Israeli decision to destroy the Palestinians first).



Along with these possible accompanying options:



4. Palestinian civil war (unmanaged)



5. Israeli civil war (limited)



Take your picks.



Choice 1 might not seem so great, but at least one might be able to say, "At least we tried" (with all the self-righteousness and moral relief that one can muster--and ain't being able to hold the moral high ground dandy!).



(With rather ominous echoes of Oslo.)



Still, as far as logjams go, I guess point 2 or 3 would be a "solution" of a sort.

But some questions are...



In this ongoing battle, does Israel gain security by holding 4 million Palestinians in, around, and part of their front lines, as opposed to on the other side of it?



Is the security that they gain worth the price they pay, economically, diplomatically, etc, and, don't underestimate the horrific damage, in rising anti-Semitism all around the world using the Palestinian cause as a club? Some would say, they'll feel that way anyway, but I don't buy it. Why sharpen a political knife and hand it to your enemies... day after day after day after day?



Ina WMD world, how does this forty miles of land really make Israel safer? Walls work. They work in Korea, they worked in Germany, they work in colling the situation down so that diplomacy can work in the end.



Why should I, as an American,care about Hebron? I don't. And if Israel continues to force me to, and they do as long as we support them, then I have to seriously consider telling them that those territories are a SERIOUS detriment to the US national interest and security. If that comes to pass, Israel, will be alone... and doomed.



I can weep over a friend drinking himself to death. But if he refuses to stop, I will NOT allow myself and family to be dragged over his cliff.



Walls work. This one can too.

Good questions, all.



But your working assumption is that Palestinians prefer their own state in peaceful co-existence alongside a viable Israel.



The preceding two and a half years clearly indicate (to me at least) that

* Palestinians don't want a state, if as part of their "agreement" to achieve statehood, Israel is still allowed to remain a viable state;

* That Palestinians believe it in their interest precisely not to have a state because it drains Israeli morale and destroys the Israeli economy, and enables the Palestinians to continue to terrorize Israel while consistently being viewed as victim of a racist, colonialist oppressor, which, as you mentioned, fans the flames of world-wide anti-Israeli and anti-Semitic sentiment. Surely the best of all worlds for Palestinians.



No, the Palestinians see the end of Israel nigh (sooner or later; but they're patient, and any and all suffering they encounter is in their interest), so they see no need for any real negotiations with their enemy. Indeed, why should they do anything to help Israel survive?

Barry -



Here's my point, succinct as possible. Who cares what the Pals think?? As long as Israeli policy, Israeli existance, Israeli whatever... depends on the Palestinians for ANYTHING, you are right. The Pals will NEVER go for a win-win choice, and none of this will ever end.



So forget them. Forget them. Create a situation where it does not matter WHAT the Paleos do... who cares? They're on the other side of the wall. If they breach the wall and attack, Israel will use chemicals, nukes, whatever it takes against their enemies and whoever backs them, and if Israel has not yet been crystal clear about that, then now's the time to tell the world, with zero apologies. (As if THAT will make them look worse than they do to so many already.)



But AS LONG AS the Palestinians are "part" of Israel, and they are as long as Israel holds the territories, well, then the lives of Israelis depend on Palestinians making a whole series of correct decisions. Right.



Screw that, and screw them. Build that wall, and let the Paleos make whatever decisions they want. If they breach the wall and attack Israel, they will die in vast numbers in about one hour. Similar to if the Soviets attacked New York.



So I'd like to see people, Israeli and American, quit chaining our fates and that of our children to a bunch of cavemen that will make self-destructive and wrong decisions from now until the sun grows cold.



The Palestinians are dead weight. Chained to Israel, which is in turn chained to the United States. And they always will be unless Israel murders them all (out of the question), or cuts them loose.



A definition of insane is to do the same thing, over and over and over again (for decades) and expect different results.



I'm tired of it. And I think so might be George W. Bush. For that matter, so are the Israelis, I would think.

Well, I guess one can't get much clearer than that.



And it seems to be pretty close (if not identical) to oj's position, as well.



In my (warped?) mind, it's a position that boils down to, "withdraw (to where exactly?) so that the Palestinians can have the state they don't want and won't accept; and then, when they continue what it is they've been doing now (and threatening to do) for some time, with perhaps a few novelties and creative methods thrown in from the heights overlooking the Sharon plain, totally destroy them."



(And the world will cheer? Though perhaps, being unpopular with some and a pariah for others, isn't such a dishonor after all. Been there, done that, as it were.)



It's not that I don't agree with you necessarily; I'm just pointing out a few potential considerations, which of course one mnight fervently hope doesn't materialize.



But yeah, it could happen. Or maybe, after all, we could all live somewhat civilly (if not happily) after....