Gee, I'da been happy with a chocolate bunny, but a shot at the evolutionary faithful...what can a fella say?

Mmmm . . . chocolate bunnies.

David-

I believe you have summed up the cause of much of the damage being done to western civilization. The rejection, as you say, out of hand, of the institutions, built up over the millennia that comprise what we call civilization in the name of science and materialism has always been tinged with egoism and hubris, thus no attempt to understand the comfort those institutions have afforded to so many. Edmund Burke spoke of this very problem, as the French Revolution was building up a head of steam (his predictions were uncanny). Many of these institutions, which are religious in nature, have their origin in man's desire to determine how he should live in relation to others and on what basis can society truly be called civilized. The individual human being as a creature not of his own making or design and the respect he is due because of this is, I believe, the foundation of it all. The fact that we have conscious self-awareness for a purpose beyond survival ,since it is plainly not needed for that reason alone, should be self-evident. To discount all beyond the realm of science as meaningless reduces mankind to pure physical phenomena liable to be pushed and prodded in the name democracy, the state or the general will. We know, from experience,where that leads and I think we would want to avoid a re-enactment.

David,

I too have met the people you describe, particularly among the more noisy of Atheists. There is nothing worse than someone whose former faith was a tower of cards proclaiming the efficacy of the newest desk he's found. So often these folks reveal themselves to be former "bible-believing" born agains who finally realized the error of their ways when they studied evolution and found out God didn't create life(which, along with revealing much about their faith, does the same for their education. Evolution is not about origins. It is about the journey we've taken since Abio or Bio, or just straight Genesis). I think the ratio of true "bible-believing" born-agains in this group is the same as the ratio of true former Democratic voters who call Rush to proclaim they will vote straight Republican in 2004.

At the same time I am deeply troubled by people who pick opposition to evolution as one pillar on which to build their edifice of faith. Maybe because my tradition is Catholicism, I see evolution as just more evidence of the rightness of the universe, to be integrated as heliocentrism was, though with much less Inquisiting. Evolution is as real as Quantum Mechanincs, and the math is simpler too. It's tough to see educated people dismiss evolution. It makes me wonder how easily they are led in other areas of science, technology, and other human endeavors.

I am always amused by selective rejection of

the other side -- the agnostic who calls for

viaticum on his deathbed, or, much more

frequent, the religionist who gets all his food,

medicine, housing etc. from those useless

rationalists.



Some call for a return to the simple pieties of

the Age of Faith, but few want to enjoy the

standard of living that was closely related to

the attempt to run an economy on the basis

of superstition.



Since I recongize the need of most people for

the emotional comfort of a Big Spook, I kind

of like the current arrangement, in which

religion is tamed by rationalism and both

function pretty well.



We have this week a good example. In Toronto,

a request to modify religious practices in order

to cut down the spread of SARS was accepted

by the clergy (though not all the laity), some

of whom even enunciated a doctrine that

it is a Christian duty to take heed of the public

health officers.



Compare the plague year of 1630 in Florence,

when the public health officers also banned

large gatherings. The clergy then complained

that it would interfere with their preaching

and demanded that the health officers be

punished. The officers appealed to the pope

-- can't get any higher than that -- and he

punished them.

The misuse of Science has already produced more human misery than anything Religion ever got up to: The Spanish Inquisition was plenty bad, but its total corpse count was a slow week for for the twentieth century's avant-gards of scientific History.

Harry I do like that bit about "religion...tamed by rationalism" very much.



And I would prefer not to believe it's an oxymoron.



Make it a sacred tango, perhaps...

My experience is that theists rarely trouble themselves to figure out what atheists are actually saying. That, no doubt, is the reason for this erroneous belief that atheists claim science is an 'explanation for everything'.



Atheists accept the fact that there are not explanations for many profound questions. The problem with religion is that it insists on answering these questions anyway - with wrong answers.

You know, Harry, I think I agree with everything you wrote. (Well, ok, I wouldn't personally refer to G-d as the Big Spook, although it is pretty funny, and I assume you meant "emotional comfort" dismissively, although I don't take it that way.)

Harry-

Economic superstition is a problem. One question: Are Marx and Keynes really that rational as opposed to say Smith or Bastiat, or Hayek? Where does the superstition really come into play? Which school makes the attempt to say that there is much that is unknowable regarding the nature of man other than through history and practical experience as oppose to the belief that all the answers are present in the system they wish to impose? Atheistic materialism is as much a religion as any spiritual belief system.

The Spanish Inquisition was plenty bad, but its total corpse count was a slow week for for the twentieth century's avant-gards of scientific History.




I wonder what the Inquisitors' butcher bill would have been had they been able to avail themselves of 20th century methods? A little larger? A lot? As many heretics gassed as they could get their hands on?



Available means placed such tight constraints on the Inquisitors' ambition that any comparison between their slaughter and those of 20th century totalitarians' is specious.

David, I didn't mean "emotional comfort" dismissively. We're all human, some a bit more twisted toward coherent thought than others. But even rationalists get married.



Tom, I was not referring to economic theories, none of which are too impressive. But your life is a whole lot

different -- I'd say better -- because skeptics and rationalists risked their lives at the hands of religious bigots to inquire, for example, if eating nuts, rosemary, salt and honey really prevents plague.



Some people may scorn materialism, but not even Carmelites scorn the good things the materialists brought them.

"Available means placed such tight constraints on the Inquisitors' ambition that any comparison between their slaughter and those of 20th century totalitarians' is specious. "



And don't forget that the 20th century villains had a much more plentiful supply of living humans available for conversion to corpses.

Harry-

Half of the world's life would have been much different had they avoided the "rationalist" superstitions that justified the deaths of nearly 200 million during the 20th century.

Totalitarian superstitions are inherently destructive, whether they are communist, Islamic, or Christian.



Thanks to the Reformation, Enlightenment, and the aftermath of the 30 years war, Christianity can no longer be totalitarian.



Thank goodness for that.