First, this vote will rescheduled on Tuesday. Bet on it to pass then.

Second, being the NYT, this is not a blow to the US, or to the soldiers who may otherwise have to fight less well supported, it is not even a blow to the military. It's a "blow to Bush". You can see Raines just droolling....

MG - Let's hope you're right about a revote. If so, once it sinks in that they threw away $15-30BN in aid and support in Washington (i.e. the country that is remaking Iraq right next door) they should vote yes.

OJ - I agree that they are in a tough spot but I don't see how they gain anything by jerking us around. They realize they are a key ally of ours in the Middle East and I wonder if they, knowing this, keep pushing the price higher.

Also hard to believe they would have allowed the US to start unloading troops/equipment if they expected a no vote.

You know what, we don't need a northern front to defeat Iraq. It was a nice to have option.



Even better we can keep our $15B.

Orrin seems to be cooling his jets about the

future belonging to the Turks.



It's still a Moslem country, after all, mostly.



I know there's not much room for morality or

ethics in government, where needs control,

but even in a pretend democracy like Turkey,

there's a matter of principal about leading a

nation into a war that, allegedly, 19 out of 20

don't want. I would not want to be a Turkish

subaltern.

That's the point Harry--it's not in their interest. They seem a pretty healthy democracy.

What we're finding is that there's a lot of unserious voters and unserious politicians in many democracies. Elected officials have an obligation to lead. A Blair, Berlusconi, Aznar, Havel, make a big difference -- even a Putin or Musharraf. But countries that elect politicians with no seriousness and no sense of what's important, like Gerhard Schroeder or Chretien, deserve retribution.

How many Americans would support Turkey in a war if it meant Southern California eventually became an independent Mexican state?

OJ;



Would that include San Francisco? Then it would quite tempting...

AOG:



You're right--I should have used Texas.

I think Turkey is a sham democracy. It is not a

natural state, and the U.S. should be

supporting free and independent Kurdistan,

Armenia, return of Bulgarian areas to Bulgaria

etc.



It isn't one of my top priorities, but western

Asia will eventually, and bloodily, be organized

on national principles like the rest of the world.

We might as well at least get out of the way

and let it happen.



Whatever the future of Turkey as a European

state, it is proving worthless as an American

ally, isn't it?

Harry:



Hardly. What would be unhealthy is for them to roll over and disavow their own national interests just because we dangle some money. They're going to have trouble adjusting to the idea of a Kurdistan, just as Israel is having trouble adjusting to the idea of a Palestine, just as Canada is having trouble with Quebec, and Spain with a Basque state, and so on and so forth. Since Wilson legitimized racialized states there';ve been a lot of pointless and difficult readjustments, but they're now inevitable.

It's incredible after the U.S. went to such great lengths to constantly appease Turkey, like the evil denial of the Armenian genocide, or the billions in aid, or the de facto approval of the Cyprus invasion, or the starvation blockade of Armenia today, or the basic free hand they have had to throw their weight around the region, that they would now do this.



This also shows Turkey for the tribalistic and primitive nation it is. When Christian Serbs were being bombed and killed Turks didn't care at all; they thought that was just great. Now that their Moslem brothers might be bombed they are apoplectic. This is a sign of a very tribal nation, not a nation that makes its decisions on universal criteria like human rights or disarmanent.



And oj, why did you not let France and Germany off so easily when they opposed war? Why the double standards?



And to all those Turco-philes like Pipes and Lewis and the whole WSJ staff, I would laugh, if only it wasn't so tragic due to the thousands of our soilders who will die because of this underhanded betrayal.

toshiro - France and Germany have been actively giving Iraq materials and technology to make WMD, both nuclear and biological, in full knowledge of his aims and the likelihood that the U.S. and Israel would be two of his top targets. Nor has Turkey initiated and led a diplomatic effort to frustrate us. Turkey may not be supporting us, but it has not been helping our enemies against us either. Turkey's neutrality is superior to French hostility.



I wouldn't be surprised, however, if the Turkish parliament reverses itself early next week.

Also Turkey has something real that they stand to lose here. I ask again: would we go help the Turks if we stood to lose territory to a despised minority? I think not.

WWJD?