Turn your eyes, Orrin, you don't want to know

about your heroes and the Jews.

You might have a point about Ataturk, and perhaps even the Shah.

However, Franco and Pinochet destroyed functioning democracies to come to power. I can accept the idea that short-term repression can lead to long-term progress, but Franco and Pinochet are the exact opposite.



Noel Erinjeri

Franco is revered by Jews, many of whom he saved.

Noel:



Functioning democracy in pre-Franco Spain? Does civil war count as functioning?

No, but it wasn't a situation like Korea's where there was total ignorance of democratic institutions.

Greetings,



I'd have to say, the article glosses over quite a few points ...



Franco's regime until his death was still putting opposition leaders to death.



As far as religion? The Protestant churches were outlawed



Franco didn't really keep Spain out of WWII - that is a bit of propaganda. In fact, Franco wanted to enter with Hitler, meeting at Hendaye, where Franco handed out his terms for what he wanted later. Hitler declined.



One little known fact is that Churchill arranged for bribes to reach Franco's top military officials to help convince Franco to stay out of the war.



It should be remembered that various members of the Azul Division did fight with Germany, many of who's members later became top members of Franco's administration.



Also, under Franco there was the bombing of Guernika, which was basically a test-run for the German military's later exploits in WWII.



As far as economic standards, that's a bit of overstatement as well. In fact, things were so bad under Franco there was widespread emmigration to other European countries and Latin America.



Cheers

Sri, for just one other point ---



Technically it could be argued the Spanish Republican govt (elections of 1931, and 1933) was a democracy prior to the Civil War (1936-1939) and Franco



Cheers

jesus:



Of course he did keep Spain out and denied Hitler access to the Straits of Gibraltar. It can be argued that he would have done otherwise given the right circumstances, but absent Pearl Harbor we'd have not fought either. That seems an exercise in futility.



I'd not argue that prior to the Civil War Spain had no democracy, but by definition it was unstable. Franco laid the grounwork for a healthy civil society, even if, or because, brutally. Vladimir Putin is, or will have to be, doing the same in Russia.

jesus-

That Franco laid out his terms to Hitler at Hendaye does not mean he wanted to join Hitler's side. He could have chosen terms he knew Hitler would not accept to stay out of the war without angering Hitler. (I saw a History Channel program that suggested this very thing. Hitler wanted Franco to join up, so he sent Admiral Canaris to convince him. Unfortunately for Hitler, Canaris was a spy for the Allies. He dissuaded Franco, and even gave him the idea for Hendaye.)

Greetings,



I've heard arguments on both sides of whether or not Franco kept Spain out of the war...I would tend to say, unintentionally he kept Spain out of the war (I guess at the end of the day it's the same). With respect to Operation Felix (Gibraltar) it wasn't that Franco was opposed - he just said Spain wasn't ready.



But then, all these points I guess are sidestepping from the main thrust of the article, for that I apologize.



Cheers,

Here's an excellent book on the topic:



http://www.brothersjudd.com/index.cfm/fuseaction/reviews.detail/book_id/693

Orrin- It was Franco who started the civil war. Before that there were strikes and stuff but it was still, basically, a functioning democracy.



I also think you're misreading Homage to Catalonia a bit. It wasn't pro-Nationalist by any stretch of the imagination. Orwell basically saw three sides: the Nationalists, whom he loathed; the Communists, whom he correctly denounced as repressive and tools of the USSR; and the Socialists, for whom as a member of the POUM militia he was fighting on behalf of the "working class." He hated the Communists for what they were doing to the Socialists, but that doesn't mean he felt anything but hatred for Franco.



Noel Erinjeri

Noel:



In the aftermath of battle I suspect that is how Orwell felt. I wonder if the same was true in 1948.

Perhaps a little off track, but amusing:



I have a friend that was a Mormon missionary in Spain a few years ago. He recounts how the old people would always turn them away with the phrase, "I only believe in two things, the Virgin Mary and Franco".

And, with that, the Defense rests...

A little book called "Burgos Justice" might peel the scales from Orrin's eyes.

I learned in Catholic school in the 1950's that Franco was a hero who saved his country from the Communists. Having read on the subject in the last few years I have concluded that this assessment is correct.