Do you subscribe to a crackpot service, or what?

The Telegraph?

Orrin finds 'em all over. Except Journal of Evolutionary Biology and similar reputable sources.

Uhhm ... if morality *is* innate to the design of human brains, one would EXPECT that damaging the modules of the brain required for it would damage moral capacity of the mind sustained by that brain's function. What is hard to understand about that?

And the reason we respect old people isn't because they're always wise. It's partly because they are sometimes wise -- simply because they have lived longer and seen things that are now gone -- but, mostly, because a society that is kind and respectful to the weak (the very old and the very young) is humanly preferable to one that tolerates cruelty to them.

Again, what's so hard to grok about that?

May I respectfully suggest that unthinking hatred of biological evolution does not necessarily maximize the expression of your normally impressive intelligence and cogency?

If that's the same thing as saying that much of our reactions is designed to impress others, so that after a while we believe it ourselves, and then as we get older we care less and less about what others think, so our desire to impress decreases, I say, "Okay."

Eric:

I'm not the one who said it was crackpot. Harry was. I agree the logic flows nicely from evolutionary biology, although I have no idea whether the scientist has done his sums right.

The proposition that many elderly lose mental facilities is hardly news. I suppose that might have some influence on moral capacity. But what is weird about this piece is that the moral failings complained of just happen to correspond to what youthful, trendy progressives consider moral bedrocks. It doesn't seem to happen in other areas.

If moral capacites declined with age, wouldn't it be common to see old folks telling their grandchildren to eat what they want, curse at will and get as much sex as they can while they are young? Wouldn't they urge them to eat, drink and be merry? How about honesty? Why study hard when you can cheat your way to success? Just make sure you have a good lawyer on standby.

In fact, many (most) of us experience our grandparents as highly moral and often with a better instinct for the combination of love and discipline children crave and want than our harried parents have. They also, because of their experience, can distinguish between what is truly important and what is ephemeral and trendy. And they can smell charlatans and demagogues at twenty miles.

Despite this, we believe increasingly that they have no use and no authority, because they are lacking or spent in some way. This article reinforces that. As you point out, we can choose to be kind or cruel, but, either way, they are put out to pasture. If this abomination flows logically from evolutionary biology, then, yes,I hate it. I'm not yet convinced it does, but I'm not hopeful either.

BTW, aren't this article and your take on it compelling arguments for taking away the elderly's right to vote?

The Rev. Clarence Kamai Sr. died last week. He was my kupuna (Hawaiian elder that you respect).

Hawaiians really do respect the old. Many years ago, I asked Clarence whether the only requirement for being a kupuna was age, or if you had also to demonstrate some other good qualities. "You just have to be old," he said. "We think that even if you're a jailbird, you must've learned something."

I then asked Clarence if he was a kupuna. (He was in his late 60s at the time.)

"Me? No," he said.

I then asked his daughter if Clarence was a kupuna.

"Of course," she said.

One thing about getting old. You never believe you've done it.

Harry:

Nice. Good for you.

However, one must keep a sense of humour on this subject. When I worked for the native peoples in the early 80's in their constitutional discussions with the Federal and provincial governemnts, the political leaders had a Council of Elders on hand to consult. They were real old-timers--knew everything about the rhythyms of the seasons and sweetgrass, etc, but they had never been to school and had a confusing time checking into a hotel. So, when the governments proposed a working sub-committee on health and educations transfers to native bands supported by grants in lieu of tax credits and with inter-governmental administrative controls, the matter had to be put to the Council before the natives could take a position.

Needless to say, progress was slow.

I'm not arguing that being old *can't* ever be accompanied by increased wisdom; I'm merely agnostic about whether it does or doesn't in any individual case, because, frankly, I think the variation is probably huge. Some people really do seem to achieve wisdom and saintliness as they age, and this achievement has little if anything to do with worldly status. Other people seem to go bad. It's dangerous to try to predict how any of us will individually turn out.

I do think there *can* be impairment of the brain with age, and often is. Whether this has to equal impairment of the spirit is a good, but difficult question. I'm not convinced you can come up with an answer to that question on first principles, or on anything but careful study and judgement.

The real point, though, is that if you make respect for the elderly dependent on whether they have in fact become wiser or stronger in some way, you actually cheapen the moral value of having a society in which *everybody* is treated with kindness and respect when they're old -- whether they've aged gracefully or not.

Peter, bingo.

In Hawaii, it's even worse, because the elders do not (always) know "all about sweetgrass." As lot of the kupunas, and most of the noisier ones, are just ignorant old fools, and they've done their grandchildren a great deal of harm.

Rev. Kamai was an Army sergeant-major before he turned to preaching, and he knew a lot about how to manage men.

"And they can smell charlatans and demagogues at twenty miles."

It seems to me that elderly people are more likely to be victimized by telemarketing scams than younger. Or maybe just more likely to admit to being scammed to television reporters.

Add televangelists.

When't the last time you heard a Gen-Xer say he'd sent a check to Pat Robertson?